This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I would argue that the primary difference is that Trump is evil. (From a left-wing perspective)
Left-wingers very rarely come out and say it, because it's a difficult thing to admit out loud, but one cannot have a sensible conversation about the "hypocritical" responses without taking morality into account. Left-wingers are not mysteriously unable to notice the Dems' underhanded tactics. Nor do they necessarily approve of them. But whether or not you approve, unethical shortcuts are much more forgivable when wielded towards mostly-good aims than when wielded towards evil aims. It's the difference between your properly corrupt cop who's covering for a gang boss in exchange for cash, and your archetypal cop-show "loose cannon" who ignores protocol & anti-entrapment laws in his quest to fuck the bastards back. They may violate exactly the same laws on paper, but one is obviously rotten, while the other should probably be tolerated. There's no hypocrisy here, just an underlying values difference which is rarely admitted to in plain English because "it's okay when our guys do it" sounds hypocritical.
I think you are brutally underestimating the power of media bubbles and the Two Screens hypothesis. My Republican father and Democrat mother dragged me into a discussion yesterday because dad was just astounded that mom had never heard a single rumbling that suggested that the Russia Collusion Incident might be flawed (much less a deliberate hoax).
My mother spends a great deal of time on social media mainlining Democrat narratives. When would she ever hear about an underhanded tactic from her own side?
This is just Russell's conjugation.
Not exactly. Russell's conjugation is a form of sheer hypocrisy - describing the same bad behavior differently based purely on whether you're unrelatedly biased in favor of the person who's doing it. Crucially, if you had perfect information about the facts of each case, and passed judgement under a Rawlsian veil of ignorance, you would regard the misdeeds as morally equivalent.
Whereas, in the case of Blues who are aware of Democratic wrongdoing (and granted, that isn't all of them; in the quoted sentence, "Left-wingers" implicitly referred to the kinds of left-wingers who argue about politics online, not to random normies) but largely ignore it while clutching pearls whenever Trump puts a foot wrong, I believe that they do sincerely believe Democrats' bad behavior is more excusable. They won't admit that to a political opponent mid-debate, but they'd defend it before God Himself with a clear conscience. "You're a murderous psycho, he saved an innocent victim's life" is not a Russell conjugation if you actually believe that A committed murder for personal gain while B was trying to save a third party.
Hence "He will stop at nothing to destroy Our Democracy, they took a few dubious shortcuts to try and save it", which I contend is subject to value disagreements and factual disputes, but not inherently an incoherent/hypocritical sentence.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Yep, this is the base of it as always. Humans gonna human. Not even sure it's a bad thing per se.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link