site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31040 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 16, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I feel like we're running fairly close to an unfalsifiable argument, where if there doesn't appear to be any propaganda or bias in MSM that must simply be because the observer is inoculated to it or because it's so subtle.

I think this is self-evident. The question is not whether there is bias, only how much, because there is no such thing as a neutral viewpoint. To get a bit pedantic, the most mundane dog-bites-man story will have some sort of philosophical framework baked in consisting of basic assumptions about reality, such as what a dog is ("a mammal often kept as a domestic housepet," "a ritually unclean animal," "a harbinger of evil," "a symbol of wiley cleverness," etc. etc.) and what a man is (well, in $CURRENT_YEAR maybe this is a bad example). Articles about mundane topics written by ancient Greeks are far enough removed from us culturally that they are laden with bizarre assumptions that make no sense to us unless we read up on ancient Greek culture and society beforehand to understand their framework.

We can easily see the unique assumptions (the bias) of the ancient Greeks because there is so much cultural distance between us and them. American leftists and rightists are not yet so far removed from each other, so we can find "unbiased" stories that both would probably agree are "neutral." But as we move to topics where the left and right have diverged more, the distance between the two frameworks reveals (usually leftist) assumptions which, yes, are often very subtle. As I have stated elsewhere, I am a "reactionary" Catholic so my framework is much more distant from the leftist framework than the average American conservative (who I believe is rightly described as "last decade's Democrat") and so I can see the left/liberal/Enlightenment fnords more clearly.

Edit: To get off my soapbox and back to the claim under discussion, I don't think that literally every article or radio segment has a claim about a minority group, but a whole lot of them certainly do, and even a mundane piece about an opera singer has a subtext that might be invisible if you're thoroughly immersed in a 21st century American context.

The question is not whether there is bias, only how much, because there is no such thing as a neutral viewpoint.

This sentiment is one of the biggest reasons we ended up in this mess in the first place. "The personal is political. There is no such thing as being apolitical" -> Therefore you better pick the correct politics or else you're complicit in moral wrong-doing, comrade.

Of course there is no such thing as complete political neutrality. Doesn't mean the concept can't still serve as an aspirational ideal.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats