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It is also societies problem. We make people do things that they don't want to do for the good of society all the time. Starting with taxes. So that isn't an out. But let me try to reset here.
If my actions contribute to someone killing themselves then I share some responsibility. Which crucially does not mean I was wrong in my actions or that I should change what I did (were it possible). If a 100% reliable time traveller tells me that if I break up with my girlfriend she will kill herself in 3 days I should take that into account. I may still choose to break up with her. I probably even should, the reasons causing me to break up with her are still there after all. But I believe then, that I do bear some responsibility. And that is ok! (Here at least, I shouldn't do it in a debate other places because it will be seen as accepting blame, most likely).
If we vote for a party in the UK that campaigns for cuts to the NHS it is likely that some additional people will die. It is still perfectly fine to vote that way because there are many other things to trade off against. But I do think we will bear some small shared responsibility for those deaths. And we should consider that as we make our choice. And then still choose to vote that way if we think it best.
I am not saying that even were trans suicide claims 100% true that we are therefore obligated to accomodate anything at all as a society. I am just saying we should consider the truth of them independent of whether its being threatened by someone wrapped in redflags. This isn't a relationship, its social engineering.
This also cuts the other way. We should also consider the costs independent of their claims as well of course. So it could be true that 1000 extra trans people kill themselves if we don't change bathroom laws and force people to use pronouns under threat of criminal sanction, and we might still say no. The costs (that they might claim are low, all we're asking for people to be nice, they might say) might actually be the potential incarceration of a third of the country, billions spent on trials and lawyers, and causing deaths the other way (a reason i don't support a gun ban in the US for example). So the right decision might be to say, we acknowledge that these stochastic deaths are likely true, but we're not going to accomodate you anyway, sorry.
I am arguing that is a better course than either calling them abusive and blindly refusing OR calling them heroes and blindly accepting.
Now obviously that isn't what is going to happen, its going to be a partisan slapfight, i would imagine. But thats why we can argue here instead.
Sorry, this all seems like orange and blue thinking to me. Do you not think people ought to be responsible for their own actions? Do you think the incentives we create matter at all? You mention social engineering, but don't seem to connect that the threat of self-harm is itself social engineering, and that my whole gripe is that its extremely susceptible to bad faith utility-monstering. You don’t give in to ultimatums in a relationship because doing so establishes that ultimatums are an effective weapon. Similarly, you should reject threats of self-harm in social engineering because doing otherwise increases the incentive for self-harm.
The difference is as mentioned before is between a threat and a prediction. They are not the same things.
You're treating the spokesperson as if they can control the trans community.
They could be lying about what they think will happen, they might be wrong, they might be hopelessly biased, but they are not threatening anything. You've said before you think that is not a distinction, whereas i think it is a huge one.
If trans people acted as one monolithic group that would be one thing, but they do not.
I agree threats of self harm are a problem, but definitionally that only applies to threats about what you will do to yourself, not what you predict other people will do to themselves. That is a non-trivial distinction. It is only the fact that you can yourself control if whatever you say will happen that makes it a threat.
So if your girlfriend's BFF says "If you break up with her, she'll kill herself. Also, if you don't empty your savings to take her on a fantasy vacation, she'll kill herself. Also, if you don’t post a glowing, thoughtful comment on every Instagram post, she'll kill herself." That's not a threat because it has an extra step? The BFF totally isn’t in on the social engineering, she's just making predictions, honest!
Sorry, doesn’t pass the smell test. If your BFF is that suicidal, you need to be getting them committed under suicide watch. You are very charitably assuming a level of sincerity and decoupled remove that I think is just utterly lacking in evidence. I believe the odds of any given TRA lying to manipulate people is incomparably higher than the odds of some trans person deciding to end it because they were misgendered in a reddit comment.
Well that is the question, you are ASSUMING her intent, you might be right, or you might not. But it doesn't actually make any difference. If she tells me that I'm going to get my gf committed for her own protection. I'm not going to agree to those terms, because they are as you point out unreasonable. Whether the person communicating them to me is sincere in pretending to be disinterested is irrelevant.
I assume sincerity yes, I think that is the best way to operate. Because just because I assume they are sincere does not mean I have to agree or accommodate them. Assuming people are sincere does not wave a magic wand where you have to do what they say. You can just say..no.
Edit: In other words whether the BFF is telling me to try and push me to accommodate the demands or because she is warning me of the crazy demands, neither impacts my ability to decide on the merits. Her motivation is not relevant, so assuming sincerity as a default does not change the outcome but is in my opinion better for the world.
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