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PaperclipPerfector  3d ago (text post)   13610 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 3, 2025

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I am not a libertarian.

In general, I perceive much of the social movements of the last 70 years to have been an attempt to stamp out visible tragedies affecting a small fraction of people at the expense of the long-term happiness and healthy functioning of the whole, and I don't think that this was a good idea. That's a moral intuition I don't expect you to share.

Well, I agree that in some cases that was effect (if not the intent) of legislation. No one thinks "I will stamp out visible tragedies affecting a small fraction of people at the expense of long-term happiness." The problem with all legislation is that even the best-intentioned legislators do not have a crystal ball or the ability to foresee all second and third-order effects.

So if you want to argue "Feminism was bad for society and we should repeal feminism," uh... I kind of agree with the first statement (for some value of "feminism") but I do not see how you achieve the second (given that "repeal feminism" tends to mean "repeal the entire concept of female emancipation writ large") without winding up at "Women are property." If you want to argue for that explicitly, I guess I can hear you out, but you are right that my moral intuitions are against it.

I also think that the number of true misogynists is very low, with the caveat that I define those as people who deeply hate women to the extent of wanting them to suffer as a terminal goal, plus those who are so deeply callous that they are totally unmoved by the legitimate suffering of a woman they know. In short 'viscerally hates them and will treat them like a fleshlight', as you say. I see no sign of this in the Dread Jim essay you link, which like it or not expresses its thoughts in terms of making both men and women better off.

I dunno how you failed to see it in that essay, but have a look at some of his other essays. I'm sure Jim himself (and indeed, almost no one but the most psychotic incels) will actually own up to literally believing "I do not care if women suffer, they should be treated like the livestock they are." But I absolutely do believe that is Jim's conviction, and that the words of some people here have come about as close as they felt they dared to expressing that. And here is mild compared to some other corners of the Internet.

Are those men a small minority of the (Western) population? Yes. (At least, I certainly hope so and have to believe so to preserve what little faith in humanity I have remaining.) But they are a non-neglible portion of the vocally online and advocates for "social change for the betterment of the whole," and they are a substantial contingent of the sad incel constituency the less, er, explicit sex warriors are arguing we need to appeal to.

In practice, I suspect that your informal definition of misogyny is much more extensive, very broadly along the lines of 'sees men as being rational enlightenment agents who have high moral worth and deserve respect and traditional American liberties, and treat women as having reduced rationality, reduced moral worth (depending on the tradition) and believes that they should be constrained i.e. not granted traditional American liberties to the same degree'.

You're incorrect. My definition of misogyny is not quite as narrow as yours, but I reserve the label for men who genuinely dislike (if not hate) women and don't believe women's concerns or preferences should register at all. A tradcon who thinks women are less rational and have less agency than men and should stay at home and raise children is not necessarily a "misogynist" in my view. (Maybe sexist, though I actually have no problem with that kind of relationship- I only have a problem with a woman who doesn't want that kind of relationship being forced into it.) No, I do not think everyone who lived prior to 1900 was a woman-hating misogynist just because almost all of them had a "traditional" view of women.

I see, thanks. I apologise for misjudging your convictions in various areas. I don't think I have that much to say as a follow-up right now, beyond a few points:

if you want to argue "Feminism was bad for society and we should repeal feminism," uh... I kind of agree with the first statement (for some value of "feminism") but I do not see how you achieve the second (given that "repeal feminism" tends to mean "repeal the entire concept of female emancipation writ large") without winding up at "Women are property."

Broadly, I agree with you, with the caveat that I don't think the mores and customs of the pre-1900s West or the Mormons/Amish/Harethi are as bad as 'women are property'.

The problem with all legislation is that even the best-intentioned legislators do not have a crystal ball or the ability to foresee all second and third-order effects.

I also agree with you here, which is why I would ideally like us to take a gradualist approach to this kind of thing, starting off with:

  • abolishing/banning the various legalities and practices aimed at achieving higher female numbers in various fields (including those which are already majority female)
  • trying to do something to reduce the level of middle-management sinecures in HR/marketing/etc.

and going from there. I don't think that this is actually politically possible - even such relatively minor measures would only become possible if mores have shifted so far that those changes are the first movements of a giant landslide. It seems to be the nature of human society and democratic politics in particular to careen rather than adjust, and I think we will end up at the bottom of the slope no matter what. Not much to be done about that IMO.

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