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Culture War Roundup for the week of November 3, 2025

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entirely material, but do not support discrimination between same-gender couples and opposite-gender couples one or both members of which is entirely infertile

Interestingly, many states had laws on the books that some people couldn't marry unless they showed that they were infertile. Namely, close relatives.

This has been trod over time and time again, but people still draw on this silly argument.

Do not impose your religious beliefs on people who do not share them.

Do not impose your atheistic beliefs on people who do not share them.

Interestingly, many states had laws on the books that some people couldn't marry unless they showed that they were infertile. Namely, close relatives.

This has been trod over time and time again, but people still draw on this silly argument.

I don't follow how the first sentence leads to the second.

Do not impose your atheistic beliefs on people who do not share them.

No one's asking religious people who are against gay marriage to get gay-married against their will.

What do you think the purpose of such laws is?

I think this debate would go rather better if you told me.

Possibly. Possibly not. I'm not really viewing it as a "debate". I'm just encouraging you to think about things. It would be nice to get your perspective on how you think about it. Perhaps it's something you've never thought about before; it would then be useful to get your fresh perspective on the matter rather than simply treating it as a "debate" to be "won", because that often leads to people simply trying to shove things into a pre-canned bin where they think they can just draw from their pre-canned set of talking points. So far, I think it's apparent that you don't have a simple pre-canned talking point for this, specifically, so it's useful to get your first impressions concerning the brute fact of such laws.

treating it as a "debate" to be "won"

I'll note that I'm not treating it as a debate to be won but as a debate whose shared purpose is to arrive at the truth.

But alright - humoring you: I don't, in fact, believe that marriage laws historically existed as social-engineering policies intended to encourage the creation of heterosexual families. As a broad simplification, I think that a critical mass of a given human population will be inclined to pair up into heterosexual households anyway, and the law eventually started keeping track of who's shacked up with who for a variety of administrative purposes (like settling inheritance disputes between a bereaved partner and the blood family of the deceased).

Only at a secondary stage did social engineers and moralizing busybodies realize that, once legal marriage became the norm, they could gatekeep it as a way to police who fucked whom and on what terms, whether based on their subjective ick-factors, or on their clever notions about the greater good of the nation. "By default any man/woman pair who ask for it can be legally married, but we will deny it to couples that could produce inbred children with defects in the hope that that'll make them give up on fucking one another at all" is a policy you get if you start from "everyone who's liable to shack up together in practice should get a rubber-stamped piece of paper regularizing that status", and only secondarily try to prevent unions that will be actively deleterious to society. I don't think it's a policy you get if you start from "we need to encourage fertile heterosexuals to shack up and make babies and raise them to adulthood" and come up with marriage licenses as an incentive, because if "number of fertile families" is your success metric rather than "number of people who'd have fucked anyway whose status is now regularized", it would be much cleaner to simply ban all potentially-inbreeding cousins from marrying than to carve out exceptions for infertile cousins.

(To be clear, I am making a kind of Rousseau or Thomas Hobbes "deriving the current state of affairs from a frictionless spherical state of nature" argument, not historical claims about a real sequence of events. This is only a model. But I think it's a model with greater explanatory power than "marriage was invented to boost demographics".)

"By default any man/woman pair who ask for it can be legally married, but we will deny it to couples that could produce inbred children with defects in the hope that that'll make them give upon fucking one another at all"

What about the bit about letting them marry if they show that they're infertile?

I think this comes naturally out of the very sentence you quoted. Say Alice and Bob ask to get married: the legal clerk will look into their application and say "but hang on, it says here you're cousins. if you fuck each other, it could create inbred babies, which is bad. you're more likely to fuck if I accept your request than if I reject it. therefore, I should refuse", and then Bob will say "hold your horses, Padre, my balls got cut off years ago in a tragic fencing accident", and this eliminates the problem, causing the clerk to revert to the default policy of "they asked for a marriage therefore they should get one".

Why would the State care if Bob got his balls cut off years ago? Why would they make some special process to 'allow' this? It's extra work; it seems to serve little purpose on your account. They have a perfectly good default to revert to - you're cousins, so you don't get married. Why would they do this other mess?

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