site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 17, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Unless the Europeans are willing to sink migrant boats by the thousands and let them all drown then simply "saying no" is about as effective as a 5'2 woman "saying no" to a 7' felon.

There is no need to deliberately sink the boats (although to be clear, you wouldn’t have to sink many to prevent all crossings; most people don’t want to die). You go to Libya, find the most powerful warlords on the coast (there are only a couple of major factions) and pay them $500m a year to deal with the migrant issue, payment upon results. They could use the money and will be happy to help.

West Germany had higher per capita GDP in 1955 than Germany in 1935 too, are we to conclude that Hitler was a humanitarian success?

If GDP per capita was higher in 1946 there might be a point. In Iraq there has been largely continuity of government since 2005. The Shiites dominate but that is expected given they are a majority.

There is no need to deliberately sink the boats (although to be clear, you wouldn’t have to sink many to prevent all crossings; most people don’t want to die). You go to Libya, find the most powerful warlords on the coast (there are only a couple of major factions) and pay them $500m a year to deal with the migrant issue, payment upon results. They could use the money and will be happy to help.

That was how it worked under Gaddafi and by all accounts the Europeans have tried to replicate the old arrangement.

Except Gaddafi had an iron grip on power whereas these warlords are themselves dependent on countless smaller militias, each of which have their own independent enterprises to profit from human trafficking. Haftar can make all sorts of promises but he can't actually enforce them even in the territory he supposedly controls. Even Al-Jolani has proven to be largely impotent at disarming the militias and he doesn't have to worry about competition.

If dumping money on warlords was enough to create a state then the Taliban wouldn't have rolled over Afghanistan faster than the Marines could leave. Forget 500m, they absorbed trillions and for all intents and purposes that money may as well have been thrown into a bonfire for all the good it did.

If GDP per capita was higher in 1946 there might be a point. In Iraq there has been largely continuity of government since 2005. The Shiites dominate but that is expected given they are a majority.

In 2006 Iraq was in the midst of a bloody campaign of sectarian violence in which Sunnis were purged from most of Baghdad. Estimates for the number of refugees and casualties created by the chaos of the period ranges between six and seven figures.

And that was before ISIS!

/images/1763770967631887.webp

That was how it worked under Gaddafi and by all accounts the Europeans have tried to replicate the old arrangement.

This is almost entirely untrue, the Italians made a brief but largely failed effort to negotiate an arrangement but Frontex undercut them at every turn and it’s not viable without a broader deal, which requires a border agency that doesn’t undercut that kind of arrangement at every turn. Even if it wasn’t possible to stop crossings, of course, that doesn’t prevent an even simpler arrangement, in which every migrant illegally landed is simply deported, immediately, by air to Libya without any European legal process whatsoever, whereupon the local warlords can do with them what they wish. A second crossing (unlike the English Channel) from North Africa is beyond most of their means, so most would return to their countries.

If dumping money on warlords was enough to create a state then the Taliban wouldn't have rolled over Afghanistan faster than the Marines could leave. Forget 500m, they absorbed trillions and for all intents and purposes that money may as well have been thrown into a bonfire for all the good it did.

As I’ve stated many times, victory in Afghanistan was absolutely possible in 2001. Restore the highly popular king (which America refused to do out of some absurd ideological republicanism) and execute about 1-3% of the adult male population per year. Implement a strict two child policy. Introduce communal and summary punishment, including the extermination of whole villages. Internal population transfers to rotate people away from traditional ethnic communities, breaking up family and ancestral ties. Extreme control of the Pakistani border to prevent almost all crossings. Regularly kill large numbers of ruling warlords (under the king’s nominal authority) to prevent complacency, and in certain territories kill a large proportion of tribal patriarchs to dismantle Pashtunwala by force, the same way Stalin and Mao handled rebellious tribes (they failed in some cases, as in Chechnya (where they weren’t close to tough enough), but succeeded in many others).

Of course this was unpalatable to western liberal elites, but I can’t stand the idea that it was impossible. With enough brutality, almost any society can be dismantled and reconstituted. It is only a question of will and incentives.

In 2006 Iraq was in the midst of a bloody campaign of sectarian violence in which Sunnis were purged from most of Baghdad. Estimates for the number of refugees and casualties created by the chaos of the period ranges between six and seven figures.

Savagery around the world is pretty common. As in Syria with the Alawites it was unlikely that Sunni minority rule over the largely Shia population would end entirely peacefully. It is still clear that, very dumb “Buh buh GDP doesn’t mean anything” European-leftist type arguments, average quality of life in modern Iraq for many people is substantially higher than in 2003.

trafficking

smuggling