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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   927 thread views

Transnational Thursday for December 4, 2025

Transnational Thursday is a thread for people to discuss international news, foreign policy or international relations history. Feel free as well to drop in with coverage of countries you’re interested in, talk about ongoing dynamics like the wars in Israel or Ukraine, or even just whatever you’re reading.

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These people don't hate Jews, they hate Israelis

My feeling is that what they particularly hate is Israeli Jews. If you asked them about their opinion on Israeli Arabs (assuming they know they exist), they'd probably be neutral to positively inclined.

Regardless, I find the arguments about whether or not all of this counts as anti-semitism to be a distraction. The common leftist position that every Israeli Jew deserves to be brutally murdered would be equally horrific in an alternative universe where everyone in Israel was Hindu.

If you asked them about their opinion on Israeli Arabs (assuming they know they exist), they'd probably be neutral to positively inclined.

Well obviously, the Israeli Arabs are just a well-off subset of the oppressed Palestinian people, in the anti-Israeli view. That's not exactly unreasonable, the Israeli Arabs aren't enthusiastic participants in the Zionist project.

The common leftist position that every Israeli Jew deserves to be brutally murdered would be equally horrific in an alternative universe where everyone in Israel was Hindu.

I'm not sure that view is that common. The more common (if naive) view is that once the Israelis take their boot of the Palestinian throat, then everyone can live in peace and harmony in a post-sectarian democracy. The more likely outcome (massive civil war) may be realistic, but I don't think many leftists actually want it. Not least because the Palestinians would lose.

the Israeli Arabs aren't enthusiastic participants in the Zionist project.

Depending on what you mean by "Zionist project". Majority of Israeli Arabs are very happy to live in a relatively well-off Westernized country, with working courts, police, social lifts, opportunities and, not to forget, welfare. Now, they may claim they don't get a fair share of the pie (whatever that may be) and in some cases, they'd be correct (and in some other cases, it'd be their own fault). But they still are getting much better deal than many of their peers in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan or PA, to say nothing of Gaza - and they know it. Now, do they identify with the dream of Hertzl and Ben Gurion? Nah, not so much. But they are willing to work with what they've got. Of course, there are others that want Israel destroyed - but even of those most, if examined, would in fact wish something like "we'd like things to stay mostly the same, but with us in change instead of the Jews". Not many want to become Gaza or Lebanon.

I don't think many leftists actually want it. Not least because the Palestinians would lose.

That's the point. They want the war which Palestinians would not lose. And this war can only look one way. We saw that way on October 7, 2023. And the left massively confirmed, by their own volition, that this is exactly what they wanted.

Well obviously, the Israeli Arabs are just a well-off subset of the oppressed Palestinian people, in the anti-Israeli view. That's not exactly unreasonable, the Israeli Arabs aren't enthusiastic participants in the Zionist project.

This doesn't change the fact that hating Israelis and hating specifically Israeli Jews are meaningfully different positions.

I'm not sure that view is that common.

I stand by my position, with the caveat that by "leftist" I'm not referring to normal people who typically vote Labour/Democrat and only get their news from the BBC/NYT. I'm talking about the sort of left-wing people who put flags/pronouns in social media bios, usually very online and of the sort who show up to LGBTQ/BLM/Palestine marches. I'd estimate that about significant proportion of them literally want every Israeli Jew dead. If you've got evidence against this, I'd be happy to hear it. It would definitely restore my faith in humanity somewhat.

That's not exactly unreasonable, the Israeli Arabs aren't enthusiastic participants in the Zionist project.

Some and some. There's at least one sitting Knesset member who's part of Bibi's Likud party, for example. Likewise, many Israeli Arabs have served in the IDF.

And I know a woman who is really tall, therefore men and women are the same height.

Less flippantly, that IDF unit has 500 men in a force of 169,500. And my bet is that a supermajority of Arabs serving in the IDF are Druze and Christians.

There are also pacificistic or anti-Zionist Israeli Jews, but they are clearly not the people driving current Israeli policy.

I never claimed that the average Arab Israeli is an enthusiastic supporter of the Zionist project, or that the majority of that group are, merely that it's misleading to claim that all of them are opposed.

A survey from a year ago found that 58% of Arab Israelis believe the most recent conflict has "fostered a sense of shared destiny between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis". An earlier survey found that 55% consider themselves "proud citizens of Israel".

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