This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This is I think correct. Being in good standing with your community is extremely valuable and the way you do this day to day is following the norms and expected behaviors. Whether the norms or expected behaviors actually do anything else is besides the point. Indeed the more restrictive they are, the more valuable thay are as a signal.
You can call it performative, but the whole point is that there is indeed an audience.
That's every society is my point. Its an intrinsic part of social conformity which is entirely necessary for a society to exist in the first place.
It absolutely is. Every society punishws those that go outside the social norms often sub judicially. Everything from excommunication, shunning, shaming, warning others mot to deal with them, exile and more.
What those social norms are, changes of course but the fundamental behaviors do not. Whether it is good or bad will depend on which norms are being enforced (and whether you agree with them or not). But that societies enforce social norms seems to be one of the buliding blocks.
Andvwherher it seemed fine before entirely depends on whether you were socially conforming. See treatment of gay people and the like.
It waa a little bit more than just not royalty hmm?
I still think you are missing my point. Every society has norms and behaviours that are enforced without government involvement.
From muttered shaming of "loose" women, to the exile or beating of cads, to disfellowshipping, shunning, social shaming, bullying and more. This is how social norms arise in the first place.
Whether you think the values being enforced are good or bad is up to you and is entirely subjective. This is entirely ok. You can prefer it 50s style if you like. You can prefer the modern version. I am just pointing out the social technologies of how it happens are nothing new. There is no point in complaining about the how, that appears to be deeply embedded in humanity. But you can certainly change the what. As indeed that has changed society to society.
People have different perspectives, so clearly it is, no?
You may think that you are entirely correct. Most people do. But there is no objective test for values differences.
If there was, TheMotte would be pretty much non existent.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link