This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I specifically stated I wasn't calling for Stalinist style mass purge. The whole point of 'responsibility' as a concept is that it incentivizes people to do a good job. That's why it exists, it balances the wealth and status that these people get.
If you sell someone an aircraft that thinks it's a Stuka and sometimes automatically nose-dives and hundreds of people die, you deserve severe punishment. $20 billion in fines is not enough, it's not like executives are paying from their own pockets. They need a stronger incentive to balance the enormous wealth they receive from the company, an incentive that has them actively pursue a culture of precision and care.
At any rate, this disastrous error would only cause a few thousand deaths over thirty years, it's a nothingburger compared to COVID. A prison sentence for the one who oversaw the 737 MAX project would be appropriate.
There's a tonne of evidence. These people (Daszak and Ecohealth) were asking for money to put furin cleavage sites in coronaviruses, they were importing them from Laos, they were training them on humanized mice. Lo and behold we get a bat coronavirus with a furin cleavage site whose closest known biological predecessor is from a bat in Laos, well adapted to human biology.
And then Daszak has the temerity to go rally together some scientists to publish a Lancet paper accusing everyone of publishing dangerous conspiracy theories unless they accept that some unknown sick bat from Laos got to Wuhan, infected a pangolin and then a human - where none of these animals have been found. By far the most parsimonious explanation is that of gain-of-function research and a lab leak. But of course the medical establishment is going to drag this out as long as possible lest they be smeared with the blame for the disaster they negligently caused. Donald Trump would never find Donald Trump to be criminally negligent and responsible for the greatest disaster of the century thus far - why would we expect anyone else to admit responsibility even if it's clearly their fault? They can find specious technical arguments against a lab-leak and hide behind their status as experts. Daszak delenda est.
I could have done better. From the Diamond Princess and Ruby Princess onwards I was confident that it was spread primarily by air, cleaning surfaces was a waste of time. I wouldn't have gone for the 'oh masks don't work' angle either and then backflip - it's obvious that masks work. That's why doctors wear them! They took months and years to fix these stupid, inexplicable errors, it's not a snap decision like those of the battlefield. They created doubt in their own wisdom and effectiveness - then they complained that people weren't trusting them sufficiently. Why would you trust anyone who gets away scott-free for lying to you, wasting immense amounts of time and creating the crisis in the first place?
More options
Context Copy link