site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34586 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Top Bottom New Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I was an early participant in Atheism+, even considered myself an "ally," and that experience was a turning point.

Tell us how they removed your ally card, everyone loves a good redemption arc.

I parted ways with wokism around elevator guy, I could never figure out what he did wrong, and that sent me down the antifeminist rabbit hole.

I could never figure out what he did wrong

Horny, drunk and stupid in the wrong way at the wrong time. Assumptions that an atheist chick would be up for sex anytime because hey, she's an atheist, doesn't have the same hang-ups as religiously raised women. Waited till it was just him and her in the lift, which makes it a confined space she can't get out of if she says no and you turn nasty. Everyone was probably slightly drunk because they'd been talking in the hotel bar. It was early hours of the morning and she was dog-tired and not in the mood for anything but grabbing some shut-eye in her own room. She didn't know him except as "one of the group of us in the bar talking" so she had no priors on whether or not he would turn nasty if told "no". Five minutes consideration if he was sober/less clueless should have told him "Not now, Horace" but horny, drunk and stupid like I said.

And no woman likes the implication that "Just because I'm an atheist that means I'll open my legs for any guy at any time".

EDIT: Now, I can understand it from his side: waited till it was just him and her in the lift because this was his best chance and he didn't feel comfortable saying it in front of the group and getting turned down; probably a tiny bit star-struck because this was the Skepchick; hey if he didn't try then he'd never get anywhere - 'if you're not in, you can't win'; also they'd been in the bar, probably drinking, probably a bit tiddly so alcohol and horniness over-rode good sense. He probably never even considered he would come across as a possible threat because men don't think this way the way women do, and we can argue over that later, but women are raised to be careful about being alone with strange men in confined spaces especially when the possibility of sex arises. There needn't have been any bad intentions on his part at all, but it was still a poor move.

She could say no, if she felt uncomfortable with a simple proposition, she if not fit to even participate in society.

This "He'll turn violent so I couldn't say no!" is a ridiculous excuse, but I hear it as an excuse all the time for women doing horrible things like adultery.

Consider this a moderation response not just to this post, but also this one and this one and this one and this one.

Basically, a whole string of bad posts, none of which are super terrible by themselves, just generally sneering and low effort inflammatory claims without evidence, but when you plop this many bad hot takes into the mod queue at once (note I am only linking to the ones that have actually been reported), it indicates someone coming in hot with an attitude that needs to be adjusted.

Don't post like this. Put some effort into your arguments. This is not the place for spewing your "bitches, amirite?" grievances.

Take two days off to chill out.

Assumptions that an atheist chick would be up for sex anytime because hey, she's an atheist, doesn't have the same hang-ups as religiously raised women.

Those are all your assumptions. But even if they were his, I don't find this insulting or creepy in the least, if those are valid categories. Maybe to religious women, but who cares in that situation. In the end, all he did was say what he wanted to say for 10 seconds, got turned down, went on his way. Everything worked out as it's supposed to, except quicker and more painlessly than usual.

Confined space

What, is she claustrophobic as well? It’s an elevator, the least private place in the building, people always a ding away.

from your other comments:

While I'm not broadly sympathetic to the whole organised atheist movement of that time, I can empathise with Watson

I don’t see why you put this as some sort of disclaimer. Obviously, it’s easy for you to believe that your ideological enemies ‘talk creepily’ to women. But would you be as ‘empathic’ if the allegations were about your own ideological group ?

How could you explain her position, since your solution presumably includes waiting until marriage to invite a woman over for room coffee.

Then came Elevatorgate, and suddenly "Do you want to come to my room for coffee?" simply meant an offer of coffee and how could anyone imagine it was an offer of sex? You see my confusion?

It’s ambiguous on purpose, everybody knows this. As that video says, "using the literal form to signal the safest message to the listener while counting on them to read between the lines". It has a part that’s literally about how old the line 'would you like to come up and see my etchings?' is.

You're doing the same thing by mixing awkwardness with the threat narrative. The ephemeral privacy of the elevator lends itself to awkwardness, not crime.

I mean, I'll give mine.

After the whole EG thing, I started talking about how they needed to change the code of conduct/create a schedule to make these events more professional on the whole. Sure you could have your fun/flirty drinky time, but they'd be limited to certain events that people could opt-in/opt-out of.

Went over like a lead balloon.

It's when I realized people were full of shit, they didn't want any actual change, they just wanted the power to enforce arbitrary rules to both get rid of undesirables and to protect themselves.

Reading back those old blog posts, I'm reminded how ubiquitous the 'invitation' to check your privilege was. Has that meme died, or am I no longer hanging out with any SJWs. Clearly privilege theory is still part of the SJW canon, but perhaps the sides have hardened, and it has never been of any use against the committed anti-woke. Atheism + parted humanity into those who check their privilege and those who don't.

Honestly, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I actually think it's a power fight over who has to check their privilege and who doesn't. Who is going to be deconstructed and who is going to be spared that inspection. As people say in this community, it's the "Who, Whom" problem, Who sets the rules and on whom are they going to be enforced. Truth be told, I don't think any of the individual issues actually matter all that much in terms of the culture wars.

I'll be blunt, actually "checking your privilege" is basically riddled with anxiety, if you're actually doing it. I'm speaking as someone with personal experience in this. It's about always second and third-guessing everything you actually do. It's not healthy in any way shape or form. The goal is to get the outgroup to do it, but not the in-group, so the in-group has decided advantages in society.

I don't think check your privilege is a particularly new or SJW aligned idea, it's literally just thanks giving and he Christians have had their version of it for thousands of years. The SJW angle was weaponizing it as a way to enforce the progressive stack, still in its proto form back then, over decoupled arguments.

I don't mean thanksgiving, I mean the specific idea that 'oppressed' perspectives are inherently more valuable than 'oppressors' because they have to know oppressors to survive while oppressors don't have to, and therefore oppressors of any axis should generally shut up and listen, which is how it was used. It creates a bit of a paradox, since they are asked to check something that should be invisible to them, according to the theory. So they have to default to oppressed people perspective, who can see fine, and guide them through the invisible knapsack.

Tell us how they removed your ally card, everyone loves a good redemption arc.

Someday maybe I will write it up, except I'm afraid there might be too much identifying information. But I think I can take partial credit for the Atheism+ forums imploding.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats