site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   27694 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 15, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I argue that this isn't a better outcome than what would have happened in C, which would also be to crash.

This is both normatively and positively wrong.

Positively: in C, Undefined Behavior often leads to a crash, but is not actually required by the C standard to lead to a crash. The outcome is literally undefined.

Normatively: If you write code that leads to Undefined Behavior, the C compiler is allowed to and often will emit code that will crash; this is the same outcome as the Rust case, but is still a worse situation because grep unwrap is a thing and grep some_regex_catching_all_C_UB is (despite linter developers trying their best) only a dream. The C compiler is allowed to emit code that will make demons fly out of your nose. The C compiler is allowed to, and often will, emit code that will hand control of your computer to the botnet of whichever attacker first discovered how to trigger the UB, at which point if you're lucky your computer is now laundering your electric bill into some mafioso's bitcoin wallet at pennies on the dollar, and if you're unlucky your computer is now an accessory to DDOS attacks or blackmail or financial scams. These are much worse outcomes. Even CloudFlare crashing is much better than CloudFlare being compromised would have been.

Bailey: "C is unsafe, because of all the memory unsafe code people have written, and we should rewrite everything in Rust to fix all of it!"

The second clause here is false IMHO (though bias makes MO very H: I've been writing a little C and a lot of C++ for 3 decades and have no current plans to stop), but the first clause is simply theoretically and empirically true and belongs in the motte.

I do wish the second clause was true, for some language if not necessarily Rust, because I have about a hundred other gripes with C/C++ that can probably only be fixed by someone starting from scratch ... but whenever I investigate a new language that I'm excited to see fixes flaw X, they seem to do it at the same time as they omit all possible support for features Y and Z and end up with something worse (for some of my purposes; there are three other languages I write in for different use cases) overall.

Yeah, my ideal modern language would be a curated version of C++. It'd have a modern package manager, cut out a ton of the language features that are outdated or dangerous or both, and rewrite some existing features (e.g. lambda functions) to be less clunky now that backwards compatibility isn't a problem.

But making something like this wouldn't be very sexy.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats