This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Scamming and stealing is definitely fun in and of itself for a lot of people. It’s why some bored housewives with money shoplift trivial value merchandise they can easily afford is a thing. Every few years here in England there is a story about some wealthy City banker using fake (or no) tickets on a commuter train and getting caught for years of fare evasion. Sure, even for the moderately wealthy that’s thousands of dollars, but it’s not about the money, it’s about the thrill. On Extreme Couponing many of the participants had money and treated it as a hobby.
However, the reason why the Somalis in Minnesota are stealing billions from the government instead of playing Fortnite isn’t just because they want to. It’s because they can, and the system isn’t really set up to catch them. They exist outside the complex web of North Western European social interaction which exists everywhere above the lowest dregs of that region’s indigenous underclass (Marius Hoiby types), and in which you would probably face some social shame or tut-tutting for ripping the government off for billions (interestingly I think this instinct is less developed in England, where the native working class have a reputation for cheating the state, both at the bottom on welfare (“benefits”) and at the top (see Michelle Mone’s PPE case)).
Northwestern Europe, especially the nordics, and so especially Minnesota, were just uniquely high trust. Singapore is also a very rich, safe and peaceful country with high quality of life, but because the state expects that whatever incentives they offer will be ruthlessly exploited by the very intelligent and cunning populace this is factored into planning. If someone is making tens of millions in China by exploiting a government program then someone in the government is corruptly in on it and local CCP management on a regional / sector level is either getting paid to look away or is being cut in. In Minnesota, I doubt there are any Jorgensens or Lunds who have made a billion off of this scam, they just let it happen.
I have no specific evidence for this, but my hunch would be that if we could trace a complete genealogy of the phenomenon, somewhere at the inception is a (blue haired?) social worker or NGO volunteer excitedly explaining to recently-arrived refugees that if they just fill out a couple of forms, everything will be okay. "You're babysitting your uncle's kids, and your sister's kids, and your cousin's friend's kids? You know, if you just fill out these forms, the government will pay you to do that!"
Compare e.g. the Arizona "ESA" where homeschooling families are now getting money from the government to do what they were already doing... only now, with more Lego! (And books, and tech, and...) One might reasonably argue that this is ensuring educational tax dollars follow actual children rather than serving purely as a jobs program for low ambition and intellectually mediocre adults. But eventually little Billy and Susie (and your uncle's kids, and your sister's kids) grow up and move on, and actually attracting new, unrelated customers is hard, especially since it seems like now everyone on your block is running a government-subsidized "daycare." But since no one ever comes to actually check on your business, well, maybe you can just put down some plausible-looking numbers...
(And if you happen to have moved to Utah in the past year, but you still have relatives in Arizona who will let you use their mailing address, why would you bother to inform the state of Arizona that you no longer qualify for the money? Of course, you might get caught. But if you're a refugee with nothing to lose, what do you have to fear from a fraud charge?)
In other words, while it certainly appears that there is massive grift occurring in Minnesota, I think it is unlikely that it started in quite that way. One needn't have Jorgensens or Lunds who have made a billion off of this scam for Jordensens or Lunds to be involved, not just in letting it happen, but in making it happen--not for their own financial benefit, but for the benefit of their suicidally xenophilic political consciences. Hannah Dugan is not an outlier, Hannah Dugan is an archetype.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link