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Trump has broken down. He has a public meltdown like three times a week. I don't know how you can look at his behavior and conclude that this is a guy who has his shit together. The man just wrote a
public* angry letter to the PM of Norway because he's mad about the Nobel prize committee (which doesn't work for the Norwegian government) and Greenland (which is part of a different country).I really don't see any evidence for this. If people close to him are saying that, it's probably because it's in their interest to present Trump as well-intentioned rather than vindictive and corrupt. Trump has consistently prioritized his own interests, power, and obsessions over the interests of America. The Greenland Crisis is just the latest example of this.
The best argument one could make to sustain the idea that Trump is acting in good faith is that he's just a moron. And in fairness, there's good reason to think that (though being a moron doesn't preclude corrupt intent). He doesn't just lack an expert-level intellectual background in the things he is working - something he has in common with the vast majority of presidents - he lacks basic intellectual curiosity and common sense (see, e.g. his preposterous understanding of trade deficits) and has a zero-sum understanding of the world.
*correction: He sent a completely unhinged private letter which only an idiot would not expect to be shared immediately
I implore you to try and model him as a real person as opposed to a stereotyped figure of hatred. He has human moments, motivations.
He is famous for actively soliciting feedback and information from EVERYBODY even when it's ill advised and he shouldn't listen, this gets painted as "whoever talked to him last" in the media but their is tremendous value to that.
I know several people who have run into him in his golf clubs and he usually asks what they think about it, actually listens, and appears to provide some consideration if they have something meaningful to say.
He is a person doing a hard job without the background that is usually required to do well.
Does he have character flaws? Everyone who is president does. Some people are worse than others, but:
Don't lose track of the fact that he is a real person and some not some poorly written Saturday morning cartoon.
Not Skibboleth, but this seems bit in bad faith --- I am not equipped to make diagnoses, but I certainly have met real people who are to first approximation modeled as vindictive and prone to tantrums. I won't try to analyze Trump's behavior deeply here, just saying such description can match a real peson.
Most people report similar experiences after meeting most politicians and other sufficiently charismatic people. Because that's what charisma often is. Some people have met "lite" versions of such charismatic persons. Super nice person who actually listens, is very sympathetic, sounds someone you would like to hang around with ... except when when you stop and compare notes with other people, and reflect on your past interactions with this person, it becomes obvious that they shit-talk other people, does come through only when it is for their immediate benefit, generally act in self-serving manner, have always a plan who to throw under the bus when a project fails due to their failings? (that was my first $big_corp line manager --- I have since left the company, I hear his career is going okay. He also never threw tantrums).
I implore you to consider that not all analysis of Trump's behavior are driven by hatred. Like, his letter to Norwegian PM has been published, and apparently is a genuine real deal. It is a very weird thing to read. (Well, so were all his tweets, too, but I suppose I have become desensitized by now).
My assertion is that I have yet to really see any anti-Trump writing that acknowledges him as a complete person, pretty much everything I've seen for ten years now has been exaggeration and stereotyping of his worse attributes and behaviors.
A much, much less lower bar ("say anything nice about Trump at all") has never been cleared by anyone I've interacted with in real life and rarely here.
I disagree with your characterization of charisma but more importantly the aforementioned behavior has been well known and noted by neutral and positive coverage since before he jumped into politics.
Either you ignore it because of Trump hatred, or (more likely) you haven't dug into who the guy is a person, which does a much better job of explaining his beliefs and behavior.*
Private knowledge tells me that Obama is a shitty overly permissive parent and that Bush did a bunch of coke when he was younger, but you don't need to be clued in to know that Clinton got up to shitty stuff with women or that Obama is destructively competitive. These are the most important people in the world and the unbiased information about how they actually function is out in the world.
Related: almost zero moderate to low information Democrats I know are aware of Trump's attitude towards drugs and alcohol despite this being an important part of his character, in fact most people assume they are the opposite of the truth.
Please do realize you just posted a collection random smears about Obama and Bush. While they may be true, they are not characterization of their personality or charisma. Like, trump is certainly famous for his own moral failings on infidelity and lack of decorum concerning women. But concerning charisma, Obama was very charismatic on tv --- exactly the person a blue-coded voter would like to hang out with. Bush projected a cowboy rancher persona, which worked for him but resulted in blue-coded people liking to call him a slow, idiot, moron and projecting conspiracy theories that he was really puppeted by Cheney, which was absurd).
Okay. But if you are arguing against such amorphous blob of writing you dislike, you are not really engaging in an argument with us in this forum thread.
e. P.S.
Concerning this aspect in particular: You say you reject my characterization of charisma. Sure, it was not all-encompassing definition. But do you reject that person I tried to describe exist? I recounted it because I found Skibbolet's description not exceedingly uncommon, a plausible theory of mind real people can maintain about other real people, in opposition to your claim that other interlocutors in this discussion are not modelling Trump as a real person. You have also neither touched on his letter to Norwegian PM.
I picked one person from each side of the aisle to make it clear it wasn't partisan, and your approach seems more "gotcha" oriented than anything, between that and a hidden profile I think I'm going to exit this one.
Cheers!
For the record, MAGA dislikes both Bush and Clinton, so it is not really very convincing attempt at non-partisanship. I also admit I don't really understand the point you were trying to make recounting anecdotes of them, either.
It is certainly your prerogative not to engage, I do that all the time when I lose interest in discussion threads here. However, I am befuddled why you posted any replies to my replies if you don't want to have an argument about what I wrote. Dunno if it counts a "gotcha".
Generally a private profile is a bad sign, and you seem to be making assumption and replying in a way that I don't think is conducive to discussion - for instance assuming I'm MAGA, or a Trump supporter, because I think that people need to be more calm about Trump?
Not typically a good sign.
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As someone who thinks Trump is decidedly less virtuous than average, I can actually think of fair few nice things to say about him: he seems quite forgiving, he can be generous with praise, he's got a sense of humour etc.
Oh yeah many people here can do this if directly prompted, which is why I made it about people I know in real life. Too many people here will jump in on the discussion (big enough forum and people will get to it) or just say something to score points.
Likewise I'm sure with direct prompting people can do what I ask, but the baseline level on the internet is "Trump will cancel the elections" which is...not great understanding.
Well I can report nobody has claimed "Trump will cancel the elections" in this discussion here, yet. We have one complaint this far that Europeans interfere with the US elections, however
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It was not a public letter, unless there was another letter I was unfamiliar with.
I'll let you argue the point with other people who have a stronger opinion on what textbook narcissism is.
Personally, I don't really think it matters (except possibly for his personal well-being) - his behavior is either good or bad, helpful or unhelpful, honorable or dishonorable, etc. Whether or not he meets some diagnostic criteria is of secondary importance. I don't, for the record, tend to agree with a lot of the way he's handled the Greenland affair.
But I also think most people forget Ellsberg's warning to Kissinger:
But of course there's a caution there not only for the outsider (us, or most of us I reckon), but also for the insider:
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