This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Democratic leadership is not doing too well in the truth department either. Walsh said ICE is not law enforcement. for instance.
No, looks like you fell for misinformation as well. Unless by a-ok you mean some value judgement outside the law. Congress explicitly gave ICE the power (without warrant) "to interrogate any alien or person believed to be an alien as to his right to be or to remain in the United States;" (8 USC 1357) (emphasis mine)
We have a very recent Supreme Court case (Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo) that helps us understand both what ICE's operating parameters are and that they are within the bounds of law. Someone can be detained by ICE on reasonable suspicion that they are violating immigration law or is involved with a violation of U.S. immigration law by another person. If there is reasonable suspicion, ICE is allowed to stop someone, ask them for ID, if they do not have ID on their person then ask for identifying details like name and address, and run them through a database to try to narrow down their immigration status.
For an example of reasonable suspicion, there was an incident where someone (let's call him Bob) saw another person with an ignored final removal order being arrested by ICE. Bob fled in another direction. Fleeing from officers creates reasonable suspicion! Perhaps that is what Bob intended. The ICE officers left the person they were there for and chased after him. He was arrested, refused to answer questions, and was taken into custody so that his identity could be determined. Bob is a US citizen, but taking him into custody seems reasonable and A-ok to me!
ICE’s policy is that no one can be lawfully taken into custody, or even questioned, on the basis of skin color. Ethnicity is never on it's own a sufficient basis for probable cause, or even reasonable suspicion. However, several factors when taken together can create reasonable suspicion:
the types of job they worked (people unlawfully present disproportionately work in certain kinds of jobs)
presence at particular locations (people unlawfully present are disproportionately found at certain places, like car washes and construction sites)
language and accent (people unlawfully present disproportionately speak languages other than English, or speak English with a heavy accent)
apparent race or ethnicity.
The Supreme Court agreed with ICE on this assessment that in combination (though not in isolation) these factors can create reasonable basis for a Terry Stop.
Refusing to cooperate with a Terry Stop, refusing to roll down your window, show ID, get out of the vehicle when asked, etc, are all things that will get you arrested, whether it is ICE or your local beat cop who's trying to talk with you.
It's normal to see the underclass act badly when stopped by the police. What's been weird is seeing middle-aged PMC respond to reasonable police requests like someone caught driving on a weed binge. The only reason they are acting like that is because they've been told it's right and just to act like that.
Edit: For example, here is a video of local police responding to a car crash. They detain a witness for the sole reason that he refused to leave his name and contact information with police. This is actually really normal! Refusing to identify yourself to law enforcement, even in absence of suspicion of committing a crime, will get you detained.
More options
Context Copy link