This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'll chime in to say that one of my favorite series of novels, Masters of Rome by McCollough, does a far more faithful rendition of Sulla. I remember consulting Wikipedia and LLMs about the veracity of several of the claims made about him, and was pleasantly surprised. Sure, several aspects, such as his rumored affair with his step-mother or the murder of his wives for gain, or potential affection for younger boys, might be slander by his political successors, but he was generally portrayed as an understandably flawed human, only larger than life in the way that people who make their marks on posterity tend to be.
Caesar? I suspect it's more of a mixed bag, and I haven't looked into it that much. McCullough presents him as a prodigy from birth, charming but principled, a favorite with the ladies, but that doesn't strike me as being a poor description of Caesar. Once again, just look at his more well-documented deeds.
Even if McCullough might lean to a more flamboyant interpretation of their lives, she's highly respected for her scholarship. You can tell that the lady Thought of Rome more often than all but the most ardent Romaboos today, counting myself in their numbers. She almost never makes anything up from whole cloth, and substitutes period-accurate guesses for aspects of daily life with verisimilitude. Further, I think that for historical characters as distant as Caesar and Sulla, any novel that isn't just a history textbook must take liberties with the truth, or at the very least, choose which historical interpretation to assume. There are tiers to this, and sliding scales for historical fidelity. I don't consider her behavior to be ahistorical at all, and historical fiction does have more leeway than an actual history.
I heartily endorse all the books, the first two are absolutely up there with the best fiction I've read.
Edit:
Given the discussion below on how truly historical depictions wouldn't be tolerable for modern audiences, I think the novel is an existence proof to the contrary. The Romans were simultaneously extremely modern in their sensibilities (we did try and intentionally resurrect quite a bit of their culture, every wonder why it's called a Senate?), but they were also alien. The book doesn't shy away from showing absolute brutality taken for granted by the people of the time, nor does it lie about their attitudes to physics and metaphysics being very far from our own. But the peoples of the past are still human, many of their prides, joys, sorrows and ambitions are recognizable to us today. And the novels do a better job at selling that than anything else I can name.
More options
Context Copy link