This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Also the bull elephant isn't in a hole of any kind - it is on the face of the statute. The statute grants a number of powers expressly, including to prohibit trade. The Kavanaugh interpretation is that all of these, plus tariffs, are implicit in "regulate".
We can argue about whether it is rational to delegate a power to ban trade without also delegating the lesser power to tariff it. (In wartime, which was the original context of the legislation, it obviously is.) But if you interpret the text of IIEPA as limited to its express words (under the MQD or any other canon of strict construction) then that is what Congress did.
You misunderstand the metaphor.
The origination of the phrase is that Congress doesn’t hide elephants in mole holes (or anthills — I forget the specifics). The concept was the statue prima facie gave the authority (ie the hole) but the nature of bill was such that Congress clearly wasn’t intended to give a massive power to the executive.
Inverting the phrase (i.e., elephant in an elephant hole) is simply saying yes there was a massive grant of authority (ie the hole) but obviously Congress was intended to give the grant (thus the hole being elephant sized; not mole sized).
It is thus curious that Congress gave this large power but failed to include a smaller power within the catch all. Note this is the opposite of how MQD typically works.
Re wartime you have it exactly backwards. Tariffs become more important in wartime; not less. You are thinking about it in the context of the enemy. But the provision can be used for not just the enemy but third parties. As the executive, you may want to raise revenue, keep a supply of a vital good going while encouraging domestic production, or utilize the threat of tariffs to pressure third parties. It’s obviously a key wartime power and in the event of an actual war I believe SCOtUS would rule 9-0 there is a power to tariff.
Again, I think the real problem here is that there clearly was no emergency and thus Trump was abusing the statute. I think BK is correct that the statute envisages a tariff but am sympathetic to the majority that Congress was not envisioning its use in the way Trump has used the statute.
Scalia is the author of the original quote:
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link