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Notes -
How did it work for you? Were you exclusively homosexual before, and are now 100% straight? Or did you reinforce an existing attraction to women?
What kind of homework exercises? I hope you don’t mind me asking - the stereotypical media depiction of conversion therapy is “teenager gets sent to an abusive camp against his will, pretends that it works on him and then has a happy gay adult life”, so how it actually goes on is something I don’t think many people know of.
I’m bisexual myself and despite my best efforts, I never felt like base attraction was something I could exert real control over. Behaviour, yes, but not the underlying desire.
EDIT: is the Dutch book you’re referring to from Dr. Gerard J. M. van den Aardweg by any chance?
When I said something about 'the sticks of men's enforcement,' I didn't particularly mean 'putting rocks in people's shoes and having them walk around,' but I suppose that's not too far off from what I meant.
There's nothing wrong with sports, fishing, working on cars, and fixing things in some vague sense, although that does lean a bit towards a red tribe and slightly older application of masculine behavior, where a lot of younger guys are fixing computers and installing cat6 in their walls, doing carpentry, and yeah, playing sports/roughhousing alongside competitive gaming or local multiplayer as a bonding ritual. I don't know about putting rocks in your shoes (and that seems very old school Catholic to me, they might as well have been wearing cilices), but it is true that men generally admire competence, doing, endurance, skill, camaraderie, pursuit of an ideal, and stoicism, and I'd count myself among them. I'm willing to admit I'm stereotypical enough to be a fan of Marcus Aurelius.
I do think that sexual attraction is malleable to some degree, and it's probably not all that hard to get someone who's 80% attracted to women to be 99% attracted to women, and perhaps even vice versa. There's probably some segment of the bisexual population for which sexual attraction can be a conditioned stimulus in one direction or another, but I suspect that it would be impossible to make a gay man exclusively attracted to women just as much as it would be impossible to make a straight man exclusively attracted to men.
Did you want to exert control to change your base attraction?
Do you see a link between reinforcing those “masculine” behaviours and it decreasing your attraction to men? Sports and roughhousing especially. Nothing like seeing a hot fit guy take his shirt off in the locker room, or wrestling with the boys, to set a bicurious man straight…
I agree. In my opinion, conversion therapy of that kind is essentially medical fraud, in that it’s extracting money from gullible patients (or parents) for a “treatment” that cannot possibly work. The free speech argument could be used for a priest or a self-help coach, not a licensed therapist.
Yes, and I tried my best! I didn’t want to be attracted to women for various reasons. But in the end feeling guilty over it didn’t help, and there’s no real point trying to repress it.
No, probably not. I think if you're really interested in the masculine form, getting close and personal with it is probably going to be erotic. But more specifically, this world is full of gay bodybuilders and straight guys with a complicated relationship to sports.
My point was not really an apologetic for conversion therapy but was a personal reflection, I guess, on masculine norms and behaviors I see in myself and male friends, which I don't think have much to do with sexual orientation. Obviously, masculine norms are a sore spot for me and neither myself nor my father are very invested in sports culture, cars, or fishing, so I'm often a little amused and a little confused at this being considered constitutive of male identity. The overall topic is a Supreme Court decision, so in that connection, you can read what I said as as an urquan obiter dictum that's not really about the topic of conversion therapy.
I think conversion therapy is unlikely to work. That said, I have a very critical view of many of the therapeutic modalities that licensed psychotherapists often make use of in their practice, like psychodynamic and humanistic methods that are re-headed 20th century woo, but nevertheless popular. The US government actually sometimes pays for veterans to receive EMDR therapy which supposedly 'works' and is 'evidence-based' in treating PTSD, but its actual theoretical basis of bilateral hemispheric stimulation is... wildly dubious, at best, and Wikipedia lists it on the pseudoscience category (same as conversion therapy, humorously enough) because there's no evidence its unique factors do anything.
Basically all therapies are evaluated on the basis of patient self-report, which means that patients' belief that something will work may be as important as any actual therapy method. This means that a huge portion of licensed therapists are, from my point of view, just extracting money from gullible patients for treatments that aren't based on any reasonable theory of how the human brain and mind work -- and nevertheless some of those patients, afterwards, say "wow doc, joie de vivre! joie de vivre!"
I don't really love the whole teen pray away the gay summer camp thing, and Lord knows residential programs intended to cough straighten-out religious youth are often questionable-to-evil, but I have serious concerns that singling out conversion therapy as a broad concept becomes an isolated demand for rigor from a profession for whom 'rigor' means 'lots of people said they liked it.
I'm not sure what the situation is like in various countries of Europe, but unfortunately, in the US, even the licensing system doesn't do much to prevent significant ethical breaches and therapeutic abuse. There's some wildly dark quackery that licensed therapists claim is therapeutic and whose damage goes far beyond conversion therapy. Jodi Hildebrandt used her sway over Mormon couples to separate children from their fathers because dad occasionally watched a pornhub video, and also prescribed much worse in terms of direct physical abuse and starvation of children for disobedience. Nevertheless -- licensed counselor, with the stain on her record prior to her criminal conviction being her violation of patient confidentiality, not the fact that her psychological and therapeutic theories were, let's say, not on this side of sanity.
Licensed therapists are already permitted to practice therapy that includes elements of a spiritual or religious tradition if this is disclosed and desired by the patient, and many people of faith explicitly seek out counselors who share their worldview (which, given how significant patient belief in the therapeutic modality is, probably means this is more effective for them). It's hard to meaningfully distinguish this from spiritual woo, quackery, and even conversion therapy to some extent, and the freedom of speech concern is that this targets the therapeutic desires of people of faith in a way that violates the fundamental principle of psychotherapy that patients are the ones in charge of shaping treatment goals. At some point, what you're saying is not that therapists can't try to convert their patients' sexuality or gender identity, it's that patients can't desire anything that rhymes with sexuality or gender identity conversion, and that's where the freedom of speech/expression concern comes into view.
If what you're calling for is something more akin to a complete rewrite of standards for psychotherapists and counselors as a profession, or criticism of parents using psychotherapy as a worldview weapon against their children -- I'm with you. But there are some deeper concerns in play.
Ah, this took a turn I didn't expect. I can understand why a bisexual man might not want to be attracted to men (while pursuing a heterosexual marriage, for example), but it's interesting that a bisexual man or trans person might find being attracted to women distressing or guilt-inducing. I really like being attracted to women because women are pretty awesome, but also my pattern of attraction is almost exclusively to femininity, so I suppose it just works to my advantage.
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That sounds correct, but I could not reproduce his full name on command.
I was bisexual beforehand, and not encouraged to befriend other patients. Support group dynamics were seen as unhealthy and to be avoided, and no residential programs existed in this world that I am aware of for that reason. So I do not know if this would have been successful for obligate homosexuals but that case was stated to be very rare- I don’t know if this was bubble effect or not.
I had homework that was a mix of standard therapy fair(journaling etc) and developing positive conceptions of myself as stereotypically masculine- bear in mind a positive stereotype of masculinity as conceived by conservative Christian clergy assisted by reactionary philosophers, there were no hooter’s trips etc. The most unusual thing I was asked to do was to admire myself nude and then in my underwear in the bathroom mirror, I think to appreciate the connection between my body and tendencies, but most of it was stuff like growing an appreciation for sports(this meant playing, not watching), doing stuff with my dad/grandad(fishing and working on cars were recommended), learning a new (tangible and masculine)hobby, and so on and so forth. I have no doubt that if I had been noticeably out of shape fixing that would have been considered part of the program, but I wasn’t and weightlifting wasn’t pushed- although undergoing physical discomfort and self discipline was, this mostly meant things like ‘not hitting the snooze button on your alarm’ and ‘walking around with rocks in your shoes all day’. There was actually a lot of attention paid to self image, I think I remember there being clear reasons for that in the book but not what they were. I was supposed to have straight male friends.
Interesting. This kinda supports my hypothesis that people who say homosexuality is a choice tend to be bisexual - it literally is when you’re attracted to both sexes!
At least they’re honest about it not being very effective on exclusive homosexuals, but calling that working conversion therapy feels like a stretch. It’s like having a program that can supposedly convert vegans into carnivores, but it actually just makes people who already eat meat stop eating vegetables.
In the LGBT community it’s already a meme that most bisexuals end up marrying someone of the opposite sex, even in progressive social settings. Add even the slightly bit of social pressure and encouragement to focus on your heterosexual attraction, and pretty much any “conversion therapy” would work.
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