This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think of surrogacy as probably involving the implantation of a fertilized egg that does not originate with the surrogate. This way, a mother without a functional womb would still get to pass on her genetic material, and it would also make it so that surrogate-purchasers would not be forced to use the surrogate's genetics, which is potentially very desirable for both sides of the transaction. The financial transaction here is selling the use of the womb, which seems sufficiently icky for someone to reasonably find it unacceptably unaesthetic, but it does not really seem like selling a child unless the birthmother's egg is being used.
Maybe a way to think about this is to ask if an eggless woman somehow steals a couple's last and only viable fertilized egg from a fertility clinic and implants herself, to whom should the child belong once birthed? My view is that the child clearly belongs to the woman who provided the egg.
I'm well aware, and I suppose I have to go back on what I said about gay surrogacy, as this clearly shows it is actually worse than the heterosexual version. If we just take the moral dilemma from the end of your comment
We can see that this is not what's happening in case of gay surrogacy, where neither woman gets any claim on the child. It is therefore not a result of a good faith attempt at attributing motherhood, but a deliberate attempt to weaken the legal position of anyone on the seller side of surrogacy, and just adds to the moral horror of the situation. And no matter how you do attribution in this case, be it surrogate, egg donor, or mixed, someone is definitely selling a child there.
Now, back to the heterosexual / general case of the scenario, I'm much more inclined to side with the woman actually giving birth. Exceptions make bad law, and your "ovary heist" scenario is implausible and would extremely rare relative to a much more common one: IVF with an ovary donation. Your approach would presumably hand over the rights to over the child to the donor, if she changes her mind? Or do we go "contracts ueber alles", and the donor has no rights because she signed them away, but the ovary heist victim does, because she did not? Is this a general framework, and people can sign away any right in your opinion, or does it only apply to motherhood?
"Potentially" doing a lot of work here. I see only one side clearly benefiting from this. If, at any point, the surrogate has a change of heart, this arrangement only disadvantages her.
A womb is not a disembodied part that can be rented out while you're not using it, and the experience of childbearing can't be sequestered to just it. It's something a woman goes through with her entire body, and which has a significant impact on her mind as well. This is seen in the surrogacy contract itself, which often includes dietary and health clauses.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link