This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There's possibility D) The Epstein saga is riddled with a plethora of falsehoods, and the actual story is much more banal than most people think.
Check this out.
Virginia is a very unreliable witness who had retracted 8 years of allegations against Alan Dershowitz. She was also accused of being a recruiter herself by Carolyn Andriano (one of the witnesses in Maxwell's trial). Ro Khanna told reporters not to ask questions or cross examine the "victim stories". But since no one from either camp gains to profit from "rehabilitating" Epstein, all the falsehoods associated with this saga are allowed to proliferate uncritically. Listen and believe. We have at least two witnesses from the Maxwell trial who, Judge Alison Nathan says, were NOT victims of illegal sexual activity, and yet received millions of dollars in compensation from the Epstein estate. And a slew of anonymous witnesses whose allegations don't appear to have been verified at all. Now we do have evidence that Epstein himself probably did have some historic engagements meeting illegal sexual activity criteria involving minors, and he wouldn't be the first or last rich socialite guilty of this. But there is no evidence that he hired minors to provide sexual services to any of his powerful friends.
What has happened is that Trump and his cronies kicked the hornet's nest for years about a predaphile elite cabal without considering second and third order consequences, in typical Trump fashion, and it came back to bite them in the arse. So now, we have an epistemologically bulletproof narrative:
American elites are a nasty cannibalistic pedo cabal rubbing hands in a dark room talking in anime-villain-speak contemplating world domination.
Epstein was a Mossad linked predaphile blackmail kingpin (allegedly puppeteering America towards Greater Israel) and the central unifying link exposing the world.
Any mention of sexual activity on Little Saint James island in the "Epstein Files" is evidence of minor sexual abuse. Absence of details means the real tapes have been scrubbed a long time ago. Exoneration means elite capture, silence is cover-up, and deviant Jews are overseeing the network.
Trump dragged everyone into his flames, but never calculated his own exit strategy.
Oh yeah. Certain corners of the Internet uncritically repeat the line that Trump is a paedophile, that he was out there on Jeff's island with Jeff raping 12 year olds (the origin seems to be the unreliable and unavailable Katie Johnson and her/their/whomever's allegations).
There was an FBI interview with a (clearly mentally unwell) male accuser in one of the batch of documents released, and all the comments were how horrible Orange Man was to rape this poor man back when he was only a boy. Now, it's always hard to tell tone on the Internet, so how much of this was genuine "I do believe he raped and drugged and the rest of it this guy along with Clarence Thomas and every other person accused here", how much was "I don't care if it's true or not, Orange Man Bad" and how much was "This story is so dumb you'd need to be a cretin to believe it, but the lulz are too good to pass up" I can't say. But there are preposterous claims floating around and depending on what side of the divide you are on, you uncritically accept that the Grues did this awful thing or the Bleens did that awful thing, because of course they did, they're awful terrible people and this is what awful terrible people do!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link