This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The irony is the men that are out to aid and assist women's interests are the ones women hate on the most. You may reject the idea of their complete ignorance in being able to detect the quality traits and attributes of those they choose to deal with, but they absolutely are out to convince you of precisely that. I literally can't tell you how bad some of their choices are.
You want to know if a man is a bad catch? Simple. I can tell you that easily. If a man is tatted like the underpass on the 10 freeway, that's a clue. If a man has been through rehab (or worse yet, hasn't been through rehab), that's a clue. If a man is 30 years old and hasn't had consistent employment, maybe you're with someone who just wants to sponge off you. If a man is physically threatening or harming you, there is never a valid reason that justifies that kind of behavior. Hell, I can tell you if he's a good catch as a teenager without ever seeing him in person. Give me his high school report card and I can sort this out in 20 minutes. Just listen to the kind of people you come across. How ignorant can you be to not see things like this?
That's the question I asked with the story of the divorced Irish woman from a little while ago. All I can think is that sexual attraction is one hell of a drug, worse than heroin or meth or fent or crack or all of them put together. It turns your brain to mush and you can't literally see what is in front of your nose when your hormones are all addled with "I have to be in a relationship, will I ever get anyone, the years are going by" plus "this guy is charming and interested in me". You end up ignoring "okay yeah so he hits me sometimes and is verbally and emotionally abusive and a loser and I'm the one supporting the household and kids, but otherwise everything is just fine!"
I swear, with all the failures in my life, the one thing I am absolutely thankful for is that I never, ever, succumbed to romantic love. How fucked-up would I be right now if I were running like a bitch in heat after some guy, any guy, please somebody stick with me I don't want to be alone?
I have a stronger drive and appetite on all levels than a lot of people I know. Whether it’s food, sleep or sex; and it took me a very long time to learn how to control it. My father used to call it my “obsessive need to consume.”
It makes sense why you would tolerate someone’s faults when you’re in love with them. Forgiving people for their sins and mistakes is part of my charter and it absolutely doesn’t come easy. But we shouldn’t be quick to associate people’s mistakes, faults and imperfections with abuse.
I was never one of those people who was afraid to be alone. I’ve learned how to live on nothing but my own two feet and have practiced it for decades. I used to tell people “if you can’t tolerate being alone, it’s only because you’re in bad company.” (i.e. you suck as a human being). If I woke up tomorrow morning to a ghost city, with everyone having disappeared but me, left to wander the streets, it wouldn’t cause me much sorrow or grief. I’d say to myself, “damn, it sucks that so-and-so isn’t here to see this…,” and I’d miss my family and friends, but I’d get along just fine by myself.
In love, I was raised according to the conventional norms and stereotypes of the 20th century. Marriage is about love, primarily in the context of family life and family formation. I don’t want a “business partner,” or “partner in crime,” or be the “hang-around-er,” that never left. In a relationship, as a man, I want a wife and kids. That’s my purpose that I was raised and built for. I know what that entails, I know what it demands of me and requires me to sacrifice, I know it’s a lifelong endeavor that you can’t back out of and I accept the costs. For me it’s always been an easy choice because I think I have a more correct frame of mind than a lot of other people do.
I think the problem is we have replaced love in that context with self-fulfilment. Love is romantic love, it's not "we're spouses, we're parents, we've built a life together, we stay together and don't jump ship at the first rough patch". So once X or Y has 'fallen out of love' with Y or X, then it's time to shut it down and move on to the new partner Z. Oh, the kids will be fine, they'll adjust!
I think love changes as it matures, but if someone confuses the first fizzy giddy romantic feelings of new love as how it is supposed to be and should remain like that forever, then they are not going to be able to cope with "oh but I don't feel the way I used to feel" and then we get the whole no-fault divorce and constantly moving on and looking for the next best thing and distrust between men and women that we get now.
This, of course, is different from abusive situations or marriages where one or both parties are not able to handle the demands, where the best thing indeed may be to separate.
You nailed it. I used to refer to those people as “emotional junkies.” It’s also why I’ve never liked the social values of big city life. Love the city. Hate their values. You see people often refer to it as a failure of parenting but look in turn at who raised those people. It’s a broken lineage. Broken people produce broken people.
Sometimes reminds me of Will Durant’s criticism of democracy. “Democracy means drift. It’s permission given to each part of an organism to do just what it pleases,” and in turn you see the complete unraveling and dissolution of the unity as a whole. Success and failure in the domain of interpersonal relationships has everything to do with attitude of mind.
Society is long overdue for someone to come and metaphorically slap a few people around and leave bruises across the collective faces of society before people get really strait laced and serious about the things that are actually important. It’s very unfortunate but sacrifice and suffering is how people learn. Pain is the most instructive of all sensations because pain always raises the question of why it’s there. It forces you to think about how you ended up where you are.
It’s the negative emotions and experiences that allow us to appreciate the positive experiences we have. Fear has promoted our understanding of the world far more than anything else has. The reason we love the truth so much is because the truth is an instrument of power. You want to know as much as you can so can be armed against everything that would hurt you. Tragedies I could have prevented by knowing the truth about things would have made things better for certain people close to me that I’ve lost. At least that’s why I strive to learn. My life and the lives of those closest to me have only become easier to manage the more I’ve learned.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link