site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

While you seem very opinionated on the subject and know more about it than I do. Phrasing things like that tunes a lot of people out.

It's true that I am very opinionated, but I try to be fully transparent about why I believe what I believe. That way you don't have to have to take my word for anything and the foundation of my opinions are susceptible to attack (as intended). What phrasing are you referring to?

The rest of your post is difficult to respond to because I assume you're being intentionally hyperbolic with your phrasing. This can be fun/useful as a stylistic point sometimes, but too much and the lack of clarity becomes a hindrance to discussion. For example, I don't know what "zero support from cities" is supposed to mean. If I encountered the phrase "the government has increased its support to NASA", I think a reasonable interpretation is that NASA was given more resources in the form of a higher budget. But if we examine that facet, we see that the vast majority of cities are increasing their police budgets, including in blue enclaves like Los Angeles (up 9.4% from 2019 to $3.86B), San Francisco (up 4%), and Chicago (up 15%). I assume you'll respond to say that you were referencing something other than budgets, but it would be helpful for all if you just wrote plainly from the beginning.

So you made an assumption I wasn't talking about budgets but included an entire comment about budgets as the bulk of your reply? Do you do that sort of thing much?

I apologize if my comment wasn't clear. I should have been more explicit that I did not know what exactly you were referring to with the "zero support from cities" phrase. The reason I included the comment about budgets was to demonstrate the difficulties inherent in responding to ambiguous statements, such as: "I think by Y you mean X, but Z facts contradict X, so my interpretation of Y is probably wrong."

your phrasing that qualified immunity is bad bc you highlighted the worst aspects of it and leaving out everything else. Maybe you don't know what chesteron's fence is? Would that be very difficult for you to ask?

Fair point, I had a mistaken understanding of Chesterton's Fence and I either should've asked or looked it up. I definitely have examined why Qualified Immunity remains in force, but none of the theories paint the people involved in a good light. Put simply, QI exists because institutions have an inherent bias in favor of agents of the state and against the typical victims of state violence. The best steelman I can contemplate about QI is that there is a benefit to having a police force that errs on the side of too much force rather than too little, and that allowing victims of state violence to pursue compensation would harm everyone because it will result in a police force that is too skittish. I ultimately don't find this argument convincing for several reasons, namely because it's self-serving and because this hypothetical concern does not appear to be reflected in professions that lack QI. For example, if you asked doctors whether they'd support a law that made them immune from liability, I see no reason why any of them would say no, and I would expect them to raise similar objections (e.g. "why would anyone risk operating on a patient if they can sued?"). There may be problems with the medical industry, but I can't identify a concern that is a result of doctors being too afraid to do their job for fear of liability, so I don't see why this objection should be taken seriously when raised by other professions.

The best steelman I can come up with for qualified immunity is the same as what Butlerian pointed out above: If you make it possible to sue police officers for honest mistakes, that means that no competent people will go into policing, because they won't want to risk the chance that they make an honest mistake and get sued.

The main reason it doesn't work that way is the case law that makes "clearly established" interpreted unreasonably, and which also lets courts close the case without clearly establishing that anything is wrong for the nexttime an officer does it.

If you make it possible to sue police officers for honest mistakes

That's basically the same steelman I offered, but I don't understand this part. Who actually thinks that getting rid of QI means that cops can be punished for honest mistakes? My interpretation of "honest mistake" would be something less than negligence, but even if we assume the latter, is there a profession that is currently facing short-staffing because of worry over negligence liability?