site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   34614 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

To be, the important thing about woke content is that it lies to us about the natural relationships between people. Instead it substitutes a fake, aspirational, version of reality where, for example, a woman is just as strong as man. Woke content is especially awful when it distorts the plot or makes its characters mere shells who exist to hammer a political point down the viewers throats.

I'm not sure about the specific criterion, but I broadly agree with this. A "woke" show (or film or game or etc.) isn't "woke" merely by having diversity or messaging that appeals to woke people. It's something that specifically reflects the woke mentality in contrast to the standard 90s-00s liberal "diversity is our strength" mentality. Which is that the world is a constant war between different oppressor/oppressed classes, and that TV shows are just another battleground where the messaging or representation has direct downstream effects that play out in literal people being killed or injured or otherwise going through unnecessary suffering. As such, the primary determinant of the quality of a TV show is its messaging, with trivial matters like likeable characters, character development, intriguing plot, clever writing, visually appealing cinematography, engaging pacing, satisfying character arcs, and the like, taking a very far back seat.

If a show just integrates concepts like diversity into its script in a way that's natural and meant to play into those traditional or outdated ways of making a show "good," then I don't think it's reasonable to consider the show "woke" in any way. It's just a standard liberal show.

90-00 liberalism might be a good analysis versus woke. That being said turning a prepper whose “clinging” to his guns into a closeted homo might make the “woke” bar. And some of you seem to be concluding if the art is done well and feels natural it then can by definition not be woke since woke can only be things we don’t like.

That being said turning a prepper whose “clinging” to his guns into a closeted homo might make the “woke” bar.

I'm not watching the show, so I can't make a meaningful judgment on this specific case, but that's possible, depending on the execution. Closeted homosexuals is something that's been explored in fiction long before wokeness, such as American Beauty (which ironically starred a famously homosexual man as the straight protagonist), and I don't see the concept of turning a stereotypically conservative prepper into a closeted gay man to be automatically woke. From the other comments here, it seems that, if anything, having this be the 3rd episode in a way that breaks up the pacing of the show might be the strongest case of it being woke.

And some of you seem to be concluding if the art is done well and feels natural it then can by definition not be woke since woke can only be things we don’t like.

Hard disagree. It's to differentiate "woke" from "standard liberalism." These are different - though related and somewhat similar - clusters of ideologies, and "woke" is "woke" by how it differentiates itself from "standard liberalism." If a show can't be distinguished from what a standard liberal would make in terms of integrating their political messaging into the work (ie in a natural way that is meant to enhance the work by those traditional standards of how shows get judged, rather than supersede them), then I don't think it makes sense to call it "woke."

For a I watched a show and I think this is interesting post there’s some good ideas going on.

It seems as though people want to separate pre 2020 media from post 2020 media. Things based on pre-2020 of which this is can still have real characters you connect to. The left liberal of the ‘90-2016 maybe a little longer can do art. And for conservatives can be someone we can get along with.

Theres an added issue from video game people that the creators went from left liberal in the first game and their follow up is harder woke. That would be interesting to set a 1 year or so timer on this post to compare.

It seems like there is general agreement that gay love story episode 3 is well done art and hits home for that human element of deeply caring about someone.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats