site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   25354 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 27, 2026

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

These ideas were drummed up in a Soviet think-tank or by communist fellow-travelers in a philosophy department in Vienna circa 1880

Were they? I mean, maybe, but I don't know if I can take ESR's word for it.

So I'm not a philosopher by training, and I'll welcome correction on this by someone from the motte who knows more, but my understanding is that yes. At the very least, two of those points:

All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

And

The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.

Are straight up Soviet propaganda cliches.

The soviets were certainly partial to the first, but even Tolstoy was suggesting that lynching negros negates America's prosperity:

In a 1905 interview with The Century magazine, Leo Tolstoy criticised American culture, where despite "virtually no hindrances to individual development", yet "you lynch negroes, form trusts, and adopt imperialism."[20]

So I'm not convinced that this one was thought up by a Soviet think tank.

Similarly, the second critique goes back at least to Hobson:

When productive capacity grew faster than consumer demand, there was very soon an excess of this capacity (relative to consumer demand), and, hence, there were few profitable domestic investment outlets. Foreign investment was the only answer. But, insofar as the same problem existed in every industrialized capitalist country, such foreign investment was possible only if non-capitalist countries could be "civilized", "Christianized", and "uplifted"—that is, if their traditional institutions could be forcefully destroyed, and the people coercively brought under the domain of the "invisible hand" of market capitalism. So, imperialism was the only answer.[2]

While I agree these two sentiments were not necessarily thought up in a Soviet lab somewhere, that's why I mentioned that the other option was they were composed:

by communist fellow-travelers in a philosophy department in Vienna circa 1880

I should have been explicit in that I don't literally mean Vienna in the year 1880 and only Vienna in the year 1880, but rather that these ideas were the result of Marxist thought or proto-socialist thought which influenced Marx.

Tolstoy was suggesting that lynching negros negates America's prosperity... So I'm not convinced that this one was thought up by a Soviet think tank.

No, but he was an anarchist, which I believe fits the definition of "fellow-traveler", or as the Bolsheviks would have said a "poputchik." That is, a sympathizer who is not an actual communist or member of the communist party. I don't think it's particularly radical to say anarchists are fellow-travelers with communists, though if you disagree I'd be happy to explain my reasoning.

Similarly, the second critique goes back at least to Hobson

Who was also a communist fellow-traveler, if not simply a communist. His writings strongly influenced Lenin and Trotsky, and he was a member of the Independent Labour Party of England, which was an explicitly Marxist party.

Perhaps communist fellow-traveler is the wrong phrase, proto-socialist might fit better for those writers who predated Kapital, but at that point I think we're splitting hairs.

Sure, the communists liked people who agreed with them, and people who didn't like the western system around the turn of the 20th century generally liked to tear it down. This much we agree on.

There's more to the question though. Would the poputchiks consider themselves poputchiks? Tolstoy certainly didn't consider himself a Marxist or a socialist, though you're right that Hobson basically did.

Did the rest of these really come about from late 19th century counterculture? I don't know about that. Crime not being due to individual choice probably goes back at least to André-Michel Guerry in 1833 talking about crime and suicide rates being subject to rigid laws rather than individual choice. Cultural relativism was described by Herodotus. Etc.

As for this:

Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.

I don't even know that Marxists believe this. Marx hated the lumpenproles. At best you can say that the Marxists believed that the poors are driven to theft by capitalism, but I don't know about entitlement or the virtue of submitting. Certainly none of them viewed theft as permissible in a socialist society like the USSR.

It just seems like you've collected a bunch of boo lights and credited Marxists and people kind of like Marxists with maybe originating or maybe just believing them. Doesn't seem to have a lot of explanatory power.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats