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PaperclipPerfector  3d ago (text post)   12631 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 4, 2026

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Even with a low in group preference you would think that men would organize jointly on matters that impact all men, like with the evolutionary disadvantage men have when it comes to ensuring paternity.

And, well, this is what they did historically. What we call patriarchy is mostly just a way of managing this problem.

I don't think it can be explained purely by low in group favoritism for that reason.

How can a modern liberal woman who goes to grad school and has 2 or 3 children compete with a Haredi or Amish woman who marries at 18 and has 6-10 children?

Convert their kids. Some people already have the illiberal instincts to justify this.

[Per Patrick Deneen]We were discussing the practice of Rumspringa—literally, “running around”—a mandatory time of separation of young adults from the community during which they partake of the offerings of modern liberal society. The period of separation lasts usually about a year, at the end of which the young person must choose between the two worlds. An overwhelming number, approaching 90 percent, choose to return to be baptized and to accept norms and strictures of their community that forbid further enjoyment of the pleasure of liberal society. Some of my former colleagues took this as a sign that these young people were in fact not “choosing” as free individuals. One said, “We will have to consider ways of freeing them.” Perfect liberal consent requires perfectly liberated individuals, and the evidence that Amish youth were responding to the pull of family, community, and tradition marked them as unfree.

I'm sure the state can do plenty of things to try to suppress fertility. We've arguably mastered that trick by accident.

Even with a low in group preference you would think that men would organize jointly on matters that impact all men, like with the evolutionary disadvantage men have when it comes to ensuring paternity.

Why would you think that at all?

Suppose we did make disestablishing paternity much easier, so random man who married badly is better off. Great for him, really. But does the cost of supporting and raising a family end up being paid by the true father? No. Instead, that cost is born by net taxpayers, which is something like the median man and above. Although I genuinely sympathize with the guy getting cucked by his wife, I'm going to press the red button so I don't get cucked by the State. In the end, he did have choices about who he married and slept with, and he chose badly.

Some of my former colleagues took this as a sign that these young people were in fact not “choosing” as free individuals. One said, “We will have to consider ways of freeing them.” Perfect liberal consent requires perfectly liberated individuals, and the evidence that Amish youth were responding to the pull of family, community, and tradition marked them as unfree.

This is curious, because Deneen and his ilk dislike liberalism for its threadbare consent-only worldview. But by that same worldview, the young people who return to the Amish lifestyle are perfectly legit. Who are you to second guess their choice? Have at it, Josiah.

I think Deneen just doesn't trust liberal promises. He is quite clear that he thinks liberalism is imperialistic and responds to weaknesses or contradictions in its own ideology or society by demanding more power towards itself and its imperatives. The standard for "freedom" is continually pushed back in ways that increase the power of the state.

The anecdote serves his purposes quite well in illustrating all these tendencies.

It's actually a criticism of his book raised by others: this doesn't really augur well for a Benedictine solution, which he gestures towards.

Even with a low in group preference you would think that men would organize jointly on matters that impact all men,

Why would you think that? I would seriously like to know your reasoning.

like with the evolutionary disadvantage men have when it comes to ensuring paternity.

Actually, being able to impregnate women and have other men pay to raise the resulting child is a huge advantage, at least for some men.

I'm sure the state can do plenty of things to try to suppress fertility. We've arguably mastered that trick by accident.

Doesn't seem to be working in Israel, and the US is next in line.

I think that because historically male led societies have been brutal to disfavored or enemy men but have general taboos against adultery, presumably cause men don't care if some man dies in a jail cell but care if they might get cucked.

As for child support cucking other men...yes, that would be great. But you can also be called for child support too AFAIK.

As for the Haredi, they're a much larger percentage of Israel's electorate than any conceivable US comparison.

I think that because historically male led societies have been brutal to disfavored or enemy men but have general taboos against adultery, presumably cause men don't care if some man dies in a jail cell but care if they might get cucked.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. From this, how does it follow that you would expect men as a group to organize in order to promote the interests of all men?

As for the Haredi, they're a much larger percentage of Israel's electorate than any conceivable US comparison.

Right, as I said the US is next in line. What do you think is happening with ultra-religious groups in the US? The answer is that -- for the most part -- their populations are exploding.

Not organize promote the interests of all men as a whole. But to protect against something all men have a reason to protect against.

Not organize promote the interests of all men as a whole. But to protect against something all men have a reason to protect against.

Ok, let me see if I understand your argument:

(1) At some point in the past, many male-led societies established social norms and laws against adultery;

(2) This shows that men can and do organize jointly on issues that impact all men;

(3) Therefore, in general one would expect men to organize jointly on matters that impact all men.

Is that your argument?

3 is too general. It's "Therefore we should expect men to continue to do so". My issue is that an inherent lack of in group preference alone can't explain it since past men figured out how to coordinate here.

The men at the top were more vulnerable to the men at the bottom in the past, necessitating those at the top making concessions to other men in addition to "wooing" women. Male coordination weakens as that vulnerability is eliminated by technological and social changes.

That could be it.

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