omw_68
4d ago
No, that's not the claim. The claim is that life has inconveniences either way, and you're unfairly weighing the inconveniences of walking medium distances in comparison to the inconveniences of walking in a city.
That's completely incorrect, but it's kind of a moot issue. See below.
Exactly what I have been repeating about every other comment. The design of Redmond Ridge was really nice and I wish more developers copied what made it incentivize walking.
That may be so, but it doesn't contradict anything I have said.
In any event, I am bowing out of this exchange. It appears that you are continually arguing against positions I haven't taken and arguments I haven't made, while at the same time your own position is too vague and shifting to permit a meaningful response.
omw_68
4d ago
Time to return to the honored tradition of using a fake pen name and persona to write your novels, I suppose.
I think if you wanted to capitalize on affirmative action, then most likely at some point you would need to step forward and prove that you really are a wheelchair bound black Muslim lesbian or whatever.
As I recall, there was a case a few years back in Australia where a white male writer pretended to be an Aboriginal woman and won some prestigious prize. But I think it would be hard to get away with that for long.
omw_68
4d ago
But it is something that is more likely to happen in a city than a suburb, which is where the comparison is. In a suburb I don't have to calculate the lenght of time it takes to go down an elevator or up a stairwell.
Again, I don't understand your point. As far as I know, the claim you were making is that a resident of an urban area needs a car to the same extent a suburbanite needs a car. The fact that any trip made by an urbanite typically includes a couple extra minutes to exit the building is true, of course. However I don't see how it's relevant to what you are trying to claim.
I would prefer to walk/bike. Cars are bulky, they separate you from the outside world, you have to find a parking space and worry that one mistake will create a huge expense and inconvenience to you and another person. I would much prefer to live in a neighborhood where I could bike 20 minutes to a grocery instead of drive 20 minutes to a grocery. This is my point
I can't really say much about your personal preferences, except to observe that everyone else has their preferences as well. And I am pretty sure that (1) most people find it impractical to live in the suburbs without a car; and (2) the same is not true for urban areas such as Manhattan.
To put things more succinctly, so what?
omw_68
5d ago
The reason for this is that such people, I suspect, are not in it for the cause, not in it to make any real positive changes or to support the operation of a local bar. They're in it to feel good about themselves. And what makes them feel good about themselves is shouting people down, asserting power and authority over them, and "making a change",
Yeah, I think it was Paul Graham who pointed out that wokeness is a magnet for some of the worst people, i.e. those who want to sadistically harm others while receiving moral permission (or even moral plaudits) for doing so.
Over the years, I've interacted with a few wokies and I definitely get the feeling that a lot of them get a sort of sadistic joy when they get the opportunity to scold another person for violating the most recent rules of Woke.
omw_68
5d ago
Fortunately, they find it difficult to coordinate amongst themselves to destroy society because they are so individually destructive that any organization full of these people will collapse into a circular shooting gallery.
I agree that this is a weakness of Leftism, but I'm not sure I share your optimism that it's a fatal flaw. One possibility is that as the Leftist cancer grows, a charismatic and psychopathic leader will seize power semi-permanently. Someone who is Machiavellian enough to know that the next step is to clamp down and start sending members of his own party off to the gulag. Along with anyone else who threatens his rule.
So that at the next annual meeting of the Socialist Party, when someone interrupts with some point of privilege regarding land acknowledgments to gay and lesbian native Americans, that person is simply taken out and shot. No circular shooting gallery
In fact, I would argue that part of the reason Communist countries tend to be so repressive is that there's no other way to hold them together. The same process that led to the communist takeover can be expected to undermine and destroy it and the only way to stop this is through secret police, fake elections, prison camps for wrongthinkers, etc.
omw_68
5d ago
I once lived in a condo that was next to a grocery store, it would also be a 2 minute walk max. I shopped 2-3 times a week. Back then, if I wanted milk or anything else that couldn't fit in my cloth shopping bag, I'd drive anyway. And that was without dealing with five flights of stairs, are you including the time it takes to walk upstairs in the calculation?
To answer your question, my parents' apartment is in a building with an elevator. And no, the extra couple minutes to take the elevator to the lobby was not included in my calculation. (Note that this is a required part of the trip regardless of whether they are about to travel by foot; by car; by public transit; or by blimp.)
Beyond that, I'm not sure what your point is. For your typical Manhattanite, having a car is not a practical necessity. For typical suburbanite, it is.
At my current place, it's a 20 min drive to the grocery store anyway, so a 20 minute bike ride isn't particularly more inconvenient.
I'm inclined to point out that this is incorrect, since driving to the grocery store is far more practical in inclement weather; if you have small children to bring along; or if you are tired or sore for whatever reason. But I'm not sure what your point is here either.
From this conversation I have mostly learned that people who live in cities and people who live in suburbs don't understand the most basic facts of each other's lives,
For what it may be worth, I have lived in both urban and suburban areas and I have a pretty good understanding of the practical realities involved in both. If you think that there's something important I am missing, feel free to share it.
omw_68
5d ago
The same would be true of suburbia so I don't see the point.
Well you were the one who asked, so presumably you know what your point was. I'm certainly not claiming that in the suburbs a car is a practical necessity because you might need to transport a bunch of heavy stuff from Home Depot. Rather, I am claiming that it's a practical necessity for leading an ordinary suburban lifestyle. Things like going to the gym every morning; getting groceries a couple days a week; getting a new light bulb.
Ok, if that's too implausible, what if you're in Manhattan and have young toddlers. You need a gallon of milk a day. How do you get the milk from the grocery store to your apartment?
That's quite a lot of milk. But anyway, you walk to the corner market. So for example, from my parents' apartment in Manhattan, it's a 2 minute walk to a bodega which sells basic things like milk. It's a 5 minute walk to a Whole Foods.
How often do you go shopping to be able to reasonably carry a gallon of milk plus whatever other food ingredients you need to keep your young family fed?
I don't know but it's pretty common to see the supermarkets full of young people in the early evening. I assume what's happening is that people are picking up groceries on the way home from work. So presumably, if necessary, it's possible to go every day. Essentially none of these people are driving to the supermarket.
omw_68
6d ago
How do I get 5 gallon paint buckets from a hardware store to my new abode?
I'm tempted to point out that the hardware store will likely deliver or that Home Depot stores in the NYC area have light trucks which can be rented for a modest fee.
But there is a threshold issue here, which is that your typical condo buyer in NYC doesn't do his own painting. He hires a painter.
Actually that's not totally true, there are surely guys in NYC who buy condos, fix them up, and sell or rent them. If that's your thing, then as a practical matter you need a car. But that's not your typical NYC resident.
omw_68
6d ago
No,
Thank you.
Though I think the same would be true of any city as well
I would have to disagree with this. If you live in Manhattan, it's not necessary to own a car and a lot of the time it's cheaper and easier to go without a car. To be sure, once in a while you may need to use a taxi or a ride-share service but that would be very unusual and when you do need such services they generally arrive very quickly.
By contrast, in the suburbs, if you tried to substitute taxi services for owning a car, you would pay such a heavy price in terms of money; time spent waiting for your ride; etc. that as a practical matter you may as well just get a car.
omw_68
6d ago
My point is that someone designed a neighborhood (Redmond Ridge) in such a way that, despite having a car, I elected to walk 90% of the time.
It doesn't necessarily follow that it's practical to go completely without a car.
It seems like instead of contradicting my position, you are claiming that for some people in this suburb, it's possible to get by without a car most of the time. Which is something I don't dispute. Simply put, I am getting the impression that you are arguing past me.
Do you dispute my position? In other words, are you claiming that, in fact, it's practical for a typical suburbanite to live in Redmond Washington without a car?
omw_68
6d ago
I'm basically telling you I did this and you are still saying it's impractical.
Sure, by "impractical" I don't mean "impossible."
So for example, it's not impossible for a mother of 4 small children to bike a couple miles to a supermarket with her children on a cold rainy day; go shopping; and bike back with the groceries and the children. But it's pretty clearly impractical.
Here's what I had said before:
as a practical matter, you need a car.
I'm certainly not claiming that it's impossible to live in the suburbs without a car.
Ok, you can't live every lifestyle there. I guess there are people who want to go to a gym for the community factor instead of just exercise at home.
It's not just for the community factor. Working out at a gym gives you access to a much wider variety of equipment; you don't have to deal with the headaches of maintaining and replacing that equipment; and for a lot of people it's psychologically easier to exercise if there is a specific place where they go to do it.
Anytime Fitness is a 24 hour gym that is a 12 min bike ride or half an hour walk.
I think this kind of proves my point. That's really not practical to do twice every morning, especially on a cold rainy morning in the dark during the winter. Especially if you are feeling sore or worn out after your workout.
The QFC is a 12 minute bike ride, which tbh I don't know many people who want to walk with groceries but biking with a trailer is fine and meets the "no cars" point.
That's a royal pain in the rear even if the weather is good. And that's assuming you are young, single, and fit. For your married mother of 4 with a 7 year old; a couple toddlers; and an infant? She's going to bike to the grocery story on a cold rainy day with all these children and be able to bring back a a few days worth of groceries?
Ixtapa is a much nicer restaurant and a very easy walk.
22 minutes according to Google maps. If you are feeling tired and want to eat out, having to walk 45 minutes in dark, rain, and cold defeats the purpose. And that's assuming you are young, single, childless, and fit. For a family with small children? Seems impractical to me.
Palmer's East is in Redmond Town Center? There's a bus pick up by Rosa Parks Elementary (about a 10 min walk from your selected house with a stroller) that goes straight to Redmond Town Center approx every 1 hour. (DART Route 224)
This seems wildly impractical to me. (It's a 15 minute drive by the way.)
Otherwise there's a lot of other cool things within easy walking distance of Redmond Town Center. Big 5 Sporting Goods,
According to Google Maps, Big 5 Sporting Goods is 38 minutes by bus (versus 14 minutes by car). Not to mention the pain in the rear factor of waiting at the bus stop, and having to accommodate yourself to the bus schedule. Versus just getting in your car whenever you want without waiting at the bus stop.
The bottom line is that it's simply not practical to live a normal suburban life in Redmond, Washington without a car. You'll spend lots and lots of extra time getting places and it's pretty much guaranteed that you will miss out on a lot of normal activities because it's just way to inconvenient to run out for 15 or 20 minutes the way you can with a car.
Edit: I should also mention that I haven't even talked about commuting to work.
omw_68
7d ago
Unironically yes. Qualitatively, the day-to-day experience of living in Houston or LA feels more like living in a very expansive suburb than like being in NYC, London, or Tokyo.
I agree with this. For purposes of debates about urbanism, development, "flight," etc. it's reasonable to think of most of Houston as being suburban.
omw_68
7d ago
Reversed stupidity is still not intelligence.
In general, I agree but I think there are exceptions to this principle.
For example, suppose you are taking a standardized college entrance exam like the SAT; you come to one of the last questions in a particular section; and you observe that a couple of the answer choices would be really appealing to a stupid person.
For example, the question is this:
In the figure below, what is the most number of non-overlapping unit squares which can be fit into triangle ABC?
(a) 3 (b) 4 (c) 5 (d) 6
Suppose that you see a really simple and obvious way to fit 4 squares into the triangle. In that case, you can safely eliminate choice (b), because stupid people are going to pick (b) and the test makers CAN'T have a test where stupid people get one of the hardest questions correct. Such a question would be thrown out. Similarly, you can eliminate choice (d) because a really stupid person will see the phrase "most" and just choose the highest answer. Choice (a) can be eliminated as well -- if choice (b) is incorrect, it follows that choice (a) must be incorrect as well.
So the net effect is that you can make a pretty good guess at the correct answer by reversing stupidity.
Ok, so what does this have to do with progressives? Well, progressives are constantly competing with each other for social status within the community. So arguably there is constant pressure to demonstrate one's belonging and allegiance to the progressive cause. Which is more effective at doing so? Making a true statement which anyone could honestly say or agree with? Or, to borrow from the Chinese fable, to pretend that a deer is actually a horse?
So arguably, progressives have incentive to twist, spin, fabricate, and outright lie, not only to advance their agenda but also just for the sake of lying.
Anyway, I can't prove that this actually happens, but it does make me think that factual claims made by progressives should be given negative weight.
My own adjoining town is just barely over 1500/km^2
[Deleted] (Edit: Sorry, misunderstood, I thought you were talking about area.)
The car thing doesn't work for the opposite reason. Philadelphia is full of cars. So is Chicago. So is New York, for that matter.
For me, the question is whether having a car is a practical necessity. In most areas in New Jersey, it is. In much of NYC, it is not.
Maybe there are parts of New Jersey where a car is not a practical necessity, perhaps parts of Hoboken. Conversely, there are parts of NYC where arguably you do need a car, e.g. eastern Queens near the Nassau border. But I would call those parts of Queens "suburbs" and those parts of Hoboken "urban."
I can also say that in practice you can go months without needing to drive unless you want to go to a specific grocery store.
I picked out a random house from your Google maps link. The address is 9424 226th Pl NE.
To be clear, I picked this house completely at random, I have no idea who lives there, if anyone.
Ok, now suppose you lived there and you wanted
(1) to go to the gym every day at 6 am.
(2) to buy groceries a couple times a week;
(3) to go out to dinner at Luigi's Cocina Restaurant (one of the nearest restaurants) once a week on Friday or Saturday night.
(4) to meet friends at an establishment with dancing and music a couple times a month (in the evening). (the nearest I could find is Palmers East); and
(5) to go to a hardware store, sporting goods store, or other specialty store a couple times a month.
How exactly would you accomplish this?
omw_68
7d ago
It's cheap enough if you buy that insulation collectively the way first-world Asian cities do.
Agreed, you'll get no argument from me on that point.
omw_68
7d ago
Lab leak is the most parsimonious and likely explanation of the whole thing
I tend to agree with this. If someone gave me $100k and I was required to bet all the money one way or another, of course I would bet it was a lab leak.
The other thing is that this is a little bit a culture war issue. Evidently, a few years back one of the progressive system updates indicated that one shouldn't blame China for the Coronavirus. How does this affect my thinking? Well for starters I can't help but notice that progressives lie about everything and everything. My impression is not simply that they say whatever BS is convenient without regards to the truth. But rather, dishonesty with respect to certain things is a badge of honor for them. So the fact that the progressive party line is against the lab leak hypothesis makes me more likely to believe it's true.
On the other hand, I admit that I really hate progressives and possibly this is coloring my judgment. The fact that they are (somewhat) against the lab leak hypothesis makes me want to believe in it.
The other thing that I find interesting is that if the lab leak hypothesis is correct (and it does seem to be correct) it suggests that the CCP has a great deal of influence over western progressives. I'm not thrilled about going down the road of conspiracy theories, and undisclosed foreign agents, but on the other hand, is it really so outrageous to hypothesize that China is trying to covertly influence Western political discourse?
omw_68
7d ago
obligate urbanites like myself are attracted to dense cities in part precisely because you don't need the inconvenience of a car for your daily errands or going out at night.
Yes of course. In a sense, inconvenience is the point of suburbs.
The sharing walls/floors/ceilings thing can be mitigated pretty well by living in a solid older building. You can insulate your personal space with money in an urban area just as well as in the suburbs,
I agree with this as well, but in my opinion, there is a key difference which is that, generally speaking, it's far more expensive to insulate a family in a city than it is in the suburbs.
omw_68
7d ago
You could theoretically live in this neighborhood without a car:
Well, as the saying goes, in theory there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is a big difference between theory and practice.
omw_68
7d ago
Urban living: Row houses and apartment buildings, with incidental retail
Suburban living: Single-family and two-family houses, and nothing else
I think that's pretty close, although I think it's worth pointing out that some suburbs have a good deal of garden apartment complexes, for example many towns in New Jersey. I have also seen a lot of garden apartment complexes in the Central Valley in California.
I'm tempted to distinguish urban and suburban based on whether, as a practical matter, you need a car. The idea being that the car requirement is a significant barrier for the kind of low human capital people who cause a lot of problems in cities and who suburbanites are typically trying to avoid.
Most suburbanites are not fleeing urban disorder; they're chasing suburbia. No amount of urban green space can ever replace a private backyard where you can grill and watch the kids and dog run around and plant a personal garden. No amount of smart planning can replace not sharing walls, floors, and ceilings with strangers. No high-quality public transit system can ever replace the freedom provided by American car culture.
I think that to a large extent this describes fleeing. I mean, what's the problem with sharing walls walls, floors, ceilings, and outdoor space with strangers? To a large extent, the problem is low human capital people.
omw_68
7d ago
Yeah, my point is that you don't need perfect verification, you just need to make the bar high enough that the random trolls (bored idiots who pop in and play their first 20 games throwing all the moves into an engine) aren't going to bother.
Ok, and I think there's a pretty good chance that AI will make it super-easy to get over such bars.
Relevant xkcd.
I would have to disagree with the (apparent) point of this comic strip. Let's suppose that we get to the point where 95% of the comments on this message board are machine-generated with little or no human input. Let's further suppose that all of these comments fully comply with all the rules. They are charitable; polite; and so on. Even so, I am pretty sure I would lose interest in participating.
Yeah, possibly they will argue that (1) AI training is based on all the world's writings (2) as everyone knows, the majority of the world's writings have been created by people of color and even literature with nominally white authorship was typically stolen from non-whites (3) therefore AI is yet another example, kind of like corn, of westerners stealing and commercializing the tireless and generous work of the Global South, and (4) therefore it's completely reasonable for people like Jason Arday to make use of AI in their work.
Or perhaps they will take the classic hypo-agency route: Westerners created unfair conditions which inevitably lead to these sorts of situations.
I think what's most likely that progressives will argue that these types are being targeted and hounded due to racism and more or less ignore it if the accusations are true.
It's an interesting exercise to guess at the strategy they will pursue, but ultimately the main thing is that one way or another, I'm pretty confident the Left will find some way to minimize, distort, deny, or deflect this type of misbehavior while blaming the situation on their favorite scapegoats.
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