This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Many things are habbening at once, here are for some more random culture war (and culture war by other means) news for the second part of the week.
Middle Eastern habbenings are already sufficiently covered elsewhere, things are going interesting even outside this part of the world.
1/Cancel culture files
Canceling machine is still running in overdrive mode, and it is coming for Cesar Chavez.
It turned out that "Moses of his people" routinely raped underage girls including another famous activist Dolores Huerta.
This is bad. Imagine if it came out that MLK raped Rosa Parks. That bad.
Many streets, schools, libraries, parks etc. are to be renamed soon.
It is already beginning.
2/Dukes, princes and kings of hazard files
Gambling is getting normalized and spreads all over the world.
Not only betting on sports for plebes, but betting on world habbenings for sophisticated situation monitorers.
In Washington DC, Polymarket just opened the world's first bar dedicated to monitoring the situation.
This sort of gambling, in addition to ruining people's finances and lives, adds another element of chaos to already spicy world's situations. With few clicks, anyone in even middling military/govt positions can personally greatly profit from insider info.
And if you are in high, decision making position ... another source of income opens, faster and more lucrative than old timey corruption and theft.
No suprise that tensions are running high.
3/US gun politics files
Illinois wants track all ammo and mandate microstamping of serial numbers to all ammunition.
Even if they could make it work, there is so much ammo already manufactured, you could say. This is no way to protect Black lives from gun violence!
This is the point. You cannot get the evil white gun hoarders for their guns (yet), but you can send them to prison for unserialized ammo.
4/Democracy files
In suprising news, Kim Jong-un wins North Korea’s parliamentary elections with 99.93% of the vote.
This was not something anyone could predict.
In 2023, Kim oversaw his party's WORST election results in 60 years, winning just 99.63% of votes.
But "to give up" is not in Kim Jong-un's dictionary.
He persisted.
He fought and regained trust of the people. May this tale of true grit and determination inspire all of us.
5/Woke culture files
You’re not hallucinating the great weirding of America
TL;DR: Wokeness is not dead yet. It might be wobbling at the top, but it is marching triumphantly across America.
Dinergoth is the aesthetic of ruined suburbia and dying small towns.
They are the mainstream now, they are not weird anymore. You are the weirdo.
6/Space invader files
Third recorded interstellar object at 16th March crossed the orbit of Jupiter and is now on the way out of Solar system.
So far, three interstellar objects were detected.
Number Two looked and behaved like ordinary snowy mudball, numbers One and Three were, in comparison to Solar system objects, very strange.
Either we live on rather busy interstellar highway, or interstellar objects are not at all like Solar system ones.
Alien starship monitoring community breathed in relief (and disappointment).
Close encounter with Jupiter was the opportunity for space battleship to rev up her engines and use Jupiter's gravity for course correction straight to Earth.
Previously, we had doubt about object origin. Now, we are certain that crew of 3I/Atlas is made of highly intelligent beings who saw nothing worth conquering on this monkey planet.
7/Cryptid files
The famous Patterson–Gimlin film was, for 59 years, known as the best evidence for existence of Bigfoot/Sasquatch.
Now, new documentary shows it all as "incredible hoax". Not only straight confession of Patterson's son Clint, but another 16mm film reel showing Bigfoot costume.
More links and sources here.
But, at the end, it doesn't matter.
Real or not, Bigfoot lives in our hearts. For forever.
I'm going to say something I can't truly back up but I'm noticing the belief forming so I'll throw it out there
It says something about the psychology of this particular ideology that so many prominent lefty leaders turn out to be rapists and/or pedophiles. It genuinely now seems like there are fewer such leaders, political or otherwise, in the last 100 years that DON'T have such credible allegations than those that do, now.
Likewise, look at the most credibly implicated parties on the alleged Epstein list, and note their overall political bent (Looking dead straight at you, CHOMSKY.)
Like, here's the most absurd way I can characterize it:
Even the Boogeyman of their entire political movement, Adolf Hitler himself, did not rape anybody.
I don't think Vladimir Putin has been credibly accused of rape either.
Trump has of course been accused of rape and other forms of sex assault (and yes, "grab 'em by the pussy" counts in its own way) but I am genuinely pretty sure he has never forcibly penetrated anyone in his life, I read him as his ego requiring him to believe he successfully seduced someone.
And how many male feminist types have been outed as sex pests in the last 10 years alone?
And no, I'm absolutely, positively not saying "right wingers are less likely to commit rape or practice pedophilia."
I think I'm gesturing off in the direction of "right wingers tend not to elevate rapists and pedos as leaders, and are certainly NOT prone to censoring or rewriting history to cover up such traits in their leaders." And perhaps a side of "Right wing leaders tend not to use their power to indulge that particular cruelty, despite the various other atrocities they will impose."
Happy to accept some correction on this point, but Googling (in an incognito window) terms like "Did Pinochet/Franco/Napoleon/Bolsonaro rape anyone" usually turns up results related to torture tactics used by their regime and not acts they themselves were known for.
Well, there are allegations against a dude named Franco but he's yet another of those male feminists.
And I DID turn up some credible claims about Mussolini. We could probably argue for a few hours about whether he's truly right wing, but I will not push that button.
FWIW I think that modern Leftism is a magnet for various types of bad people (grifters, sadists, sexual abusers, etc.) who want (1) a shield against accusations of misbehavior; and (2) the opportunity to feel good and righteous and just as they inflict harm on others.
If I were a sociopath and I were mainly concerned about self-aggrandizement; sexual opportunities; and/or outlets for sadism, then 100% I would get involved in some Leftist cause.
As far as Nazis go, I would guess that it's the same principle in play. Perhaps not Hitler himself, but I think it's very likely that the ranks of Nazi leadership were full of sexual abusers, it's just that there isn't evidence available in the form of victim testimony, photographs, etc. But if you are a sociopath in 1930s Germany, of course you are going to join the Nazi party if you can.
Yep. "Positions of power will attract power-hungry sociopaths" is for all pursuits and purposes, a truism.
But it is notable that the ideology that claims to be about liberation, smashing of oppression and coercion, removal of hiearchies, etc. etc. has such poor antibodies against abusers achieving power.
To the point where they will actively coordinate to protect the reputation of the abusers in many cases, for the good of their movement.
And of course the libertarian movement, both right AND left, has a bit of a reputation for being pedo-tolerant to a fault, which points to the issue NOT just being about exercise of power.
I would need to think about that one. Of course part of the issue here is that I absolutely despise Leftists so of course I am naturally biased towards any argument that they are more prone to be sexual abusers and such.
That being said, perhaps a factor is that -- in large part -- Leftist ideology is about reforming traditional norms. So perhaps the provides more of an opening for sexual opportunists and such. Certainly if I were looking to get laid, I would prefer to the head of the local PETA chapter, as opposed to being the head of the local chapter of Operation Rescue.
More options
Context Copy link
The libertarians are tolerant by definition in a way that feminism cannot claim to be.
Not that tolerating pedophiles is a good thing, mind. I just find that libertarians aren't the best example to pick here.
I'd make the connection between libertarians being open and tolerant (and leery of strict authoritarian rulemakers) and their susceptibility to letting questionable characters into their midst. They could stand to be about twice as judgmental as they actually are.
And lefties in general having that same tendency. They like to reject rigid rules and prefer more relativistic morals, and thus the are able to get to a position where "restricting children from having sex is oppression!" is a viable stance for many of them.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don’t think Nazis had a lot of sexual abuses. Right wing orgs are different than left-wing orgs. Best example I have is there doesn’t seem to be many claims of pedophilia or sexual degeneracy in maga. Right-wing probably does select for profiteers etc but moral degeneracy I don’t think so. Like maybe Peter Thiel? There are some homosexuals in maga. But worst I’ve seen is Thiel having 20 something sugar babies.
The Nazis themselves were a claimed response to Jewish degeneracy.
MAGA seems fine with age-gap relationships and men using power to get sex from of-age girls. But I don’t think that’s the same thing as the child porn stuff popping up on left.
The national leaders seem to have been personally virtuous in this regard, but they were also willing to tolerate and promote men like Oskar Dirlewanger, who was notorious for his many atrocities, including raping, mutilating, and murdering scores of women and children.
That wiki is a horrifying read:
Jesus. CHRIST.
Sort of gets to the point, though, he would have gotten punished more quickly, if he hadn't apparently had a powerful protector.
Dirlewanger’s men were if anything more creative in their abuses, though I won’t describe them here. Himmler knew what they were up to, saying, “The tone in the regiment is, I may say, in many cases a medieval one with cudgels and such things.” Despite this, he told Dirlewanger, “I am very satisfied with your actions, as I recently told you personally.”
After Dirlewanger was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, the highest honor in the German military during WWII, he gloated to a friend,
Among those “unwelcome voices” was that of Friedrich-Wilhelm Krüger, the head of the SS in Poland, who threatened to arrest the entire regiment if they were not removed from his territory. Eventually even Himmler became alarmed at the grotesque behavior of the regiment, but only because he was concerned that they would eventually begin to attack fellow German soldiers and the Nazi leadership.
What’s particularly bizarre about the group is that Hitler seems to have initially ordered its creation as a punishment for the men involved—originally mostly poachers, whom the animal-loving Hitler hated. Instead, he gave a group of the most depraved sexual perverts, sadists, and psychopaths five years to enjoy satisfying their demonic urges to their hearts’ content.
More options
Context Copy link
When even the guy responsible for organizing SS genocidal tactics and supressing the Warsaw uprising thinks the guy is too far gone, that's really saying something:
"Guderian was supported by SS-Obergruppenführer Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, the overall commander of the forces pacifying Warsaw (and Dirlewanger's own former superior officer in Belarus)"
Seems like the difference between the guy for whom its a 9-5 and he's just carrying out his job working at the atrocity factory, vs. the guy who is doing his war crimes during his personal time.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
See the case mentioned below, about the 26 year old professor and the 22 (or 20? I saw that age elsewhere) undergraduate. Oh, the age gap involved! Clearly he abused his power over her! A whopping 4 to 6 years difference!
Worrying about age gaps can get ridiculous. No, an adult man (or woman) should not be trying to get intimate with a child. No, 'X is 6 years older than Y' when they're both in their 20s or 30s is not the same thing.
To be clear that’s the left making that an issue. And specifically blue sky leftists.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don't know about that. Of course I despise Nazis, so it's difficult for me to concede that they may have had any redeeming qualities. In any event, they surely had their share of sadists and psychopaths. And it's pretty common for men in positions of power to leverage that power for sexual access to women (or other men). So I would have to guess that there was quite a lot. Especially given that they were in a position to conceal much of the evidence.
I mean, I'm not looking for redeeming qualities. Right wingers have their goddamn share of atrocities to their names, even if those who were impeccably gracious in their personal lives.
Just making some observations about comparative evils.
Was defeating Hitler worth the huge amount of rapes committed by the Red Army? I think the lefties would say so. I wouldn't want to ask for an exchange rate, though. "How many rapes is worth one holocaust victim's life" is a horrendously taboo question.
Rapes by the Red Army are things that would have happened whether anyone in the West chose to fight Hitler or not, so I don't think that question means much. It's not as if someone could say "we don't want your help" and they'd go home.
The trouble with comparing Soviet and Nazi atrocities is that the Soviets did what they were going to do while the Nazis were stopped. There really isn't a serious counterfactual where the Soviets do a whole lot worse than they actually did. By contrast, the Nazis plans for if they won in the East involved tens of millions of deaths on top of everything they actually did, and we have every reason to think they meant it.
More options
Context Copy link
I mean, I'm just asking it to be provocative. "If saving six million Jews meant 12 million women get raped, is it a net good?"
Can your utilitarianism save you now, rationalist?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Huh? Rape of concentration camp prisoners is pretty well documented, as are the brothels.
Isn’t that normal especially in war? Nothing about that is moral degeneracy - homosexuality back then or pedophilia.
Raping people from your own country is not normal in war.
There are plenty of examples of war between sides arguing over the definition of "your own country" (Ukraine, for a current one), many of which include the unfortunately standard set of war crimes.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link