This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It's a solution to some modern problems. People have been talking about aesthetics a lot lately, and if someone's problem is that they live in a grey box, and work on a smaller grey box inside of a larger grey box, where everything is lit with fluorescent tubes, then Orthodoxy can, indeed, solve their Beauty problem. It can solve the lack of a village problem, if they commit. It might solve their theological or hierarchical problems, depending on what they are.
But, yes, it won't solve their relational problems, especially if, as in the article, they're a woman holding out for a Good, strong, provider, leader sort of man around their own age. Or a man in want of a younger woman who's easy to please, cheerful, pretty, a good homemaker, but can also bring in an income before and after having young children. Those expectations are not solvable. A woman looking for a nerd to visit historical sites with might do fine, and then they might develop feelings for each other, if they're both the kind of person where reading Byzantine poetry is romantic, but the women in the article don't seem to be. It's utterly predictable that male Orthodox converts would always be going on about: Rome! Second Rome! Even Third Rome! Restore Constantinople! Of course they are, even normal men are apparently always thinking about Rome, and Orthodox men have even more Romes!
On the other hand, I've met a couple of these men. My husband, who's a big fan of Rome and aqueducts and whatnot, has been a bit weirded out by some Orthodox men who meet us and immediately start talking about some council or other, and their extremely strong opinions about the outcome thereof, for the entirety of lunch. I suppose they're autistic? But, still, autistic men who want to find friends and eventually wives do need to tune in a little bit to how deep into the old books they should get upon first meeting someone.
Tradcaths have a much lesser grade of these same problems(no birth control, like actually seriously, just short circuits around so so much of this 'how to have trad sexual ethics in a post sexual revolution world', for example), and we straight up tell our young men that women do not care about the third council of Constantinople or whatever, learn to talk about sports or work or something they have a framework for interacting with.
I suspect Orthodoxy is in the unenviable position, though basically no fault of its own, of attracting a certain type of person who thinks that their youth pastor and Pope Francis were both not hardcore enough.
So is traditional Catholicism- 'smoking the whole pack' when you bite down on trad seems to solve a lot of this stuff, even if it's not a magic bullet.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link