This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Right, there are obvious differences.
I'm really not sure how to answer the question "why should people stop lying to themselves if it makes them feel good in the short-term?" The question seems to contain (or at least imply) its own answer.
The problem is that you can't really police what people believe, or choose to believe, inside their own heads. I've been on this point and sort of wrestling with it for a while - I'm perilously close to thinking that trying to change people's minds with facts and evidence is a useless endeavor, as people will just do whatever they wanted and then make up whatever justifications they want for it afterward. I'm of the opinion that most people don't have strongly held beliefs and are perfectly capable of functioning under doublethink, or even triple, or quadruplethink. Pointing out the inconsistency and acting like being correct is some huge deal is what's unnatural.
I can't stand communists, and would rather every single person who espouses that ideology be killed. I have a bit of history there. But I don't bother ever bringing this up or mentioning it when I see the extremely online self-professed communists carry the flags and wear the t-shirts. I know their values, belief, and knowledge is paper thin. They know about as much about communism as they know about Uzbekistan, or the price of wheat, but it makes them feel good to be part of something and allows them some form of legitimacy and credentials for hating the rich. Bringing it up and questioning their beliefs only to find out that there's nothing there and you're just harshing their vibe is wasted effort, doing so makes you the strange one who are missing the obvious social cues.
Complaining about people lying about their self-professed reasons to not breed seems pretty pointless in my opinion. What will change if they are honest? If they don't want to have kids, they don't want to have kids, the end, and whatever excuses they make up about it is their business.
Granted, I'm pretty sure they're lying about not wanting kids either. My mind kind of translates automatically that both genders don't want kids because they haven't met someone they want to have children with. Or alternatively, because having one requires sacrifice, and modern society is great at telling people sacrifice is for the lesser mortals even as people like Elon have enough progeny to staff a soccer team.
As Scott would say, "If It's Worth Your Time To Lie, It's Worth My Time To Correct It".
I want to respond to you in more detail, but I haven't fully woken up yet. I'll come back to you after another cup of coffee.
Take your time, I'm also half conscious. The comments in the Scott post I find more insightful than the post itself, much like a lot of the content he's written since the move to ACX.
I'm genuinely confused at what he expects, though; Scott has been blogging long enough to sit through multiple (American) presidential elections, and the fights around each. In my experience, I've seen virtually zero cases where any political discussion has resulted in people changing their minds or who they were voting for. The reasons I've heard from people of the broadly defined sides of the political aisle are many, but even beyond their reasons, to reach to a meta-level beyond that and to analyze if those people are true believers or are just making mouth noises is next to impossible.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I can't help but note that Elon is a terrible example of someone who sacrifices much to have children. Elon's contribution to his children, as far as I'm aware of from media osmosis, is a visit to the sperm bank and a payout that is a pittance to him yet enough to make the mother's time worth its while.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link