site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Over the last few months, I've followed someone named Alexander Kruel on Substack. Every single day, he writes a post about 10 important things that happened that day - typically AI breakthroughs, but also other of his pet concerns including math, anti-wokeness, nuclear power, and the war in Ukraine. It's pretty amazing that he is able to unfailingly produce this content every day, and I'm in awe of his productivity.

Unfortunately, since I get this e-mail every morning, my information diet is becoming very dark.

The advances in AI in the last year have been staggering. Furthermore, it seems that there is almost no one pumping the breaks. We seemed doomed to an AI arms race, with corporations and states pursuing AI with no limits.

In today's email, Kruel quotes Elizier who says:

I've already done my crying, late at night in 2015…I think that we are hearing the last winds start to blow…I have no winning strategy

Elizier is ahead of the curve. Where Elizier was in 2015, I am now. AI will destroy the world we know. Nate Soares, director of MIRI, is similarly apocalyptic.

We've give up hope, but not the fight

What comes after Artificial General Intelligence? There are many predictions. But I expect things to develop in ways that no one expects. It truly will be a singularity, with very few trends continuing unaltered. I feel like a piece of plankton, caught in the swells of a giant sea. The choices and decisions I make today will likely have very little impact on what my life looks like in 20 years. Everything will be different then.

So, party until the lights go out? How do I deal with my AI-driven existential crisis?

How do I deal with my AI-driven existential crisis?

The best I can do for you is plant seeds of doubt with a list of questions.

What is the similarity between Yudkowsky and his milieu and a new religious movement or a millenarian movement? What is the propensity for new religious movements to predict a near- to medium-term apocalypse? Is there something in special about the rationalist community that makes rationalists immune to the sociological dynamics that have popped up in other human groups throughout history, and for this group to be so different as to the the first group that is correct about predicting the apocalypse? Is there something about Yudkowsky that makes him more effective at prediction than the cassandras that proceeded him? Is Yudkowsky better at marketing himself than other cassandras? If Yudkowsky is so convinced of an AI apocalypse, then why would he bother inflicting memetic despair on much of humanity during its final moments? Is Yudkowsky more of a sci-fi writer or a domain expert of AGI? Even granting Yudkowsky the title of domain expert in AGI, how frequently do domain experts make inaccurate predicitons in their areas of expertise (think of Malthusian predictions among economists and ecologists, or of sovietologists prior to 1991)?

Yes I agree the track record of domain experts making predictions of doom is very bad. I bring up Yud because he's a member of this community sort of, but the Big Yud and I have arrived at the conclusion relatively independently. I didn't read him, or Alexander Kruel, or Gwern or anybody to arrive at my conclusions. It just seems plain as day to me that the risk of AGI coming in the next decade is very high (say > 50%).

Would Metaculus be a better appeal to authority? The wisdom of crowds has a much better track record.

https://www.metaculus.com/questions/3479/date-weakly-general-ai-is-publicly-known/

"Date Weakly General AI is Publicly Known" poll is now at 2027.