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Notes -
Is the State a "Civic Church" in terms of jurisdictional power, or am I overreading this?
Guys, I'm new here, so I'm not sure if this fits, but I've been wrestling with the relationship between the State and religion, and I want to run a thought by you.
We all know this Western ideal: separation of church and state. But after years of living it, watching the news and trying to understand the friction, it seems to me that you don’t get constant, systemic conflict unless two powers are fighting over the exact same piece of "real estate." And that "real estate" is moral authority.
Here is the nuance I want to add, because I know the counter-argument: "The State doesn't care what you believe in your heart; it only cares about public compliance." I grant that completely.
But here is where the jurisdictional land-grab happens: The State doesn't just say, "We have a separate rule for public conduct." It says, "Your religious rule is invalid inside your own institutions, and you must comply with our civic moral code—even when operating your own schools, charities, and hospitals." That isn't two sovereigns coexisting; that is the State asserting ultimate supremacy over religious bodies.
Now, I agree that politicians and judges likely aren't malicious. They genuinely believe they are defending "progress," "equality," or "women's rights." They see themselves as liberators from "archaic dogma."
But functionally, aren't they establishing a new civic orthodoxy? The medieval Church defined orthodoxy and punished heterodoxy. The modern State does the same—except the "sin" isn't heresy; it's "discrimination," and the "punishment" is fines, loss of tax-exempt status, or closure.
Let me give a concrete example, carefully: In Europe, it is generally legal to teach your child at home, in private, that homosexuality is a sin according to your faith. However, if you run a state-funded religious school, the State will intervene to compel the curriculum to reflect civic values over religious ones. The State is not policing belief, but it is policing the public expression and institutional enforcement of that belief.
To me, that sounds less like "neutral arbitration" and more like a rival institutional power asserting its dominance over the moral code. I've read that conflict over legal jurisdiction is the academic gold standard for proving institutional rivalry.
So my ultimate question isn't "Is the State a religion?"—because clearly, it lacks the supernatural elements. Rather, my questions are:
"If the State claims ultimate jurisdiction over moral conduct even within religious institutions, does that make it functionally equivalent to an established 'civic church' in terms of political sovereignty? If so, how can religious groups negotiate this without capitulating entirely?
And isn't the State constantly changing its beliefs? By doing so, isn't it effectively admitting that it was wrong before—and that it will likely be wrong again? That makes me doubt whether it even cares about being objectively right at all, or whether it is just running social experiments on us. And if it is just experimenting, then isn't it essentially messing with society however it wants, without caring enough about the long-term consequences—even if its leaders have 'good intentions'? I mean, the society is pretty polrized in many things.
It's not that the state is a church. It's that the class of people who staff the bureaucracy have a deracinated protestant heresy which they have entrenched in the university system which serves as the great filter for the middle and upper classes. They (in a very complicated and messy and unorganized manner over several generations) then declared the traditional concept of meritocracy against the Constitution and replaced it with what X might call "gay race communism", the true religion of the capitalist managerial class. Forever decrying the system they are parasitized on, and the populations they rule. It is only by this "eternal revolution" that they can maintain the class solidarity needed to rule the empire. Everything old must be destroyed forever so that each generation can in turn be divided and ruled along lines of class or race or religion or sexuality. Hilariously, the religion essentially exists as a critique of itself. It calls for the constant abolition of the economy that sustains it, the nationalism that empowers it and the social order that submits to their bureaucratic will.
Just as in the old days, this church controls the official Science, all official education, its monasteries and charitable organizations serve as conduits for political power and influence. And just as with any state religion, the personal and class interests of the adherents inevitably influence some amount of their doctrines. The amorphous nature of the ideology is sort of the point, it can change on a dime when political winds change. You can always revolt against the revolutionaries from twenty years ago.
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