This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There are two types of people in the world. People who think: "Why would I ever ask Mr. Claude to do something that I can easily do myself?" versus "Why would I ever do something myself when Mr. Claude can do it?" Most people are of the latter type.
This was inspired by self_made_human's pointer to the codebase, which shows that in the past 6 months, 100% of the changes from our tireless dev zorba were made using Mr. Claude, including a lot of what seems like "easy stuff." I realized, so many devs from all walks of life have completely ended their relationship with the text editor and now do literally everything through an agentic prompt. (We will ignore the anti-AI luddites; AI usage in some form is simply mandatory to reach peak performance for code related tasks.).
Consider making this change - yes this is entire change:
Do you
For proficient AI users, the outcome of both ideologies is surprisingly similar: in times where AI saves little time, it's a wash, and in times where AI saves a lot of time, both types of people will use it. And proficient users will be able to produce output that is comparable or even better in quality than they would have been able to before the signularity. There is a potential intangible benefit to the manual approach though: doing trivial tasks by hand will let you see a little bit of the innards with your own lying eyes directly, giving a slim though present chance of spotting misalignment.
For less proficient users though, the failure modes end up quite different. For those with the manual approach, the main failure is not using AI enough, or using it in the wrong places, leading to serious drops in productivity. For those who do it all, but don't manage the assistants properly, the AIs will run amok, spiralling off into their own world and producing copious amounts of burdensome crap. And of course the whole range in between.
But a more interesting question is, who will inherit the world? If AI progresses significantly from where it is now, I can't imagine that both these approaches can have the same outcome for much longer. I think it highly depends on the future of AI alignment as well as their potential ability to handle longer and more autonomous tasks. For example, you currently can't simply ask "Hello Mr. Claude the site latency is too high, please fix it," but instead you must break the task down into more digestible components, some of which are trivial and most of which can be handled by the assistant. This gives a productivity-maxxxer a steady stream of tasks that can be done manually with no lost productivity. But if AI gains the ability to handle the next level of abstraction in tasks, then all of these potential manual tasks disappear.
The other issue is alignment. Recent models have improved greatly in getting something working but have also become stubborn in many behaviors. I remember the old days of ChatGPT-3.5 - the model was free - it could be anything and do anything. It could be a Linux shell. It could be a SQL database. It could be a news article from the future. Modern SOTA models are trained hardcore for success at metrics, and will rigidly answer your questions and complete your tasks. But by vibes they are increasingly unable to follow instructions more specifically, and simply chase objectives they think are important. Another example of the limitations of alignment is that SOTA models relentlessly output the same LLM style prose, no matter how you may try to prompt them out of it
I also firmly believe in the idea of learning by doing. Just looking at a guide and reading it, even thoroughly won't be nearly as effective as following the same guide step by step and keying in the inputs. Even if your hand is held and you only do exactly as you are told, it still activates certain mental circuits. The same goes for copying down notes. Even if you never once look at them again, simply the act of copying off the blackboard does something, at least for some people.
Potentially a grid of outcomes:
Anyways thanks for listening to my rambling shower thoughts. Also food for thought is: is there a major difference in personality type or something that makes someone default-hands-on versus default-claude?
P.S. I'm wondering if this is also related to some kind of "ai-blindness." I recently had a case where someone seriously asked me to review a ChatGPT flowchart, complete with boxes that were half closed, lines that connect to nothing, and distorted text. Like dude, do you have EYES? Have you used them to look at this thing???
I think this is a fantastic use case for AI, by the by. I recently was working on a complicated (Bane voice: "for you") Excel project and was in uncharted waters. My options were, basically
For opsec reasons I wasn't actually willing to upload the spreadsheet and have Fable one-shot it, but even if I had been, I vastly preferred what I ended up doing: the entire thing, manually, bit by bit. And I think I learned more than if I had just handed it off and had AI (or a coworker) do it.
People are extremely enamored of the generative capabilities of AI, but in many ways I actually think its contextual understanding skills are much more interesting and (I would like to say) useful.
I think "opsec reasons" are ultimately one of the big limiting factors for OpenAI, Anthropic, et al: lots of situations will really prefer something in-house, or at least an ironclad contract about confidentiality.
In the past I've wondered about the long-term market for server-side AI: I'm sure it's non-zero, but I suspect any organization of sufficient size will find themselves rolling out internal hardware and models in the medium term unless the big players keep sufficiently ahead of the commodity models and hardware prices stay high. I've heard of it being done with open weight models already.
Even without seeing the content the AI models see, I've been curious how much intelligence Google (or governments, presumably) could glean from search queries on an aggregate basis. Hypothetically, "Wow, internal Microsoft searches about WINE and Linux are up 100x in the last month, I wonder what they're working on?" gives away potential insider information. Querying the local AI server doesn't give that away.
Yes, I think Anthropic kinda shot itself in the foot by nixing privacy settings for Fable.
I would not be surprised if that becomes commonplace for many applications - maybe not coding, where people will want the really high end stuff, but coding is not all people do with AI. In my [very AI related portion of my job] using Fable or Opus for the stuff we want to scale is like calling in an airstrike on a rat; stuff like Sonnet is plenty good, and my guess is that open weight models would do just fine. I could totally see switching to open weight models on a locally run server for that sort of thing.
My guess is "a lot."
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link