site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 27, 2026

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

And obviously it should not matter because they have surely written down the exact provenance of any bullet they fired down to the lot number, right?

Heh. Yeah, there's a lot of signs that this was a real rat's nest under the hood. I didn't want to get even more nitpicky, but it's somewhat entertaining to see some firearms break down the manufacturer and barrel length, and then ".32 Caliber Handgun" on the next line. Forget the question of barrel length. Which cartridge, specifically? And then you think like an actual gunny and get really curious about loadings, manufacturer, SAAMI rated or +P, and you start to realize exactly how much could be hiding in the experimental details.

That said, I'm hoping that the outlier fragmentation 5.56 reflects some weird and el cheapo ammo from an entirely different manufacturer. Because it looks like one of the first trials they did, and a 20% squib is very interesting, if it came from the same pack as everything else.

Soft tissue is mostly water, so I would have assumed you could learn a lot about bullet penetration simply from buying the cheapest vegan hydrogel and firing bullets into it. Furthermore, it kinda seems a thing people would care about, given that militaries all over the world are still operating rifles. The idea that they would care about the cavitation effects of a nautical propeller but not about the interaction between humans and bullets seems absurd.

It's a little harder and less well-researched than you'd expect. The ballistic gel side is one of the more settled questions: ordnance gel was very much a WWI-era thing, admittedly still a lot later than you'd expect for something that's basically just animal protein, and it wasn't really used outside of the military or NATO contexts until the 1990s. The new gel here is easier to keep, nicer to work with, and -- important for camera work -- much clearer, but it's new enough that it's worth being sure your data is good. What's frustrating is they knew they needed that extra validity, but went full streetlight effect. Which is a bizarre discontinuity of effort when talking about tons of pig flesh!

Hydrostatic shock as a theory dates back to the Vietnam era if not earlier, but at least in public scientific work, the earliest version of the readily-tested scenario of 'bone-in-jello' was in the 2010s. There's been a bunch of attempts to test it in animals, but they've been very ad-hoc and focused on energy levels and round sizes where... well, you don't worry about hydrostatic shock being what kills you.

I am very much not a gun nut, but I would rather have a 5.56mm NATO go through my arm than a musket ball... but I imagine getting hit by one was gruesome.

That's actually one of the matters of dispute. An actual musket would have had similar kinetic energy and carved a much wider wound channel as the 5.56 NATO, which is definitely gruesome, and there's very few human organs that like having a three-quarter-inch (or inch: soft lead deforms) hole drilled through them. Even a lower-round, 'small' flintlock rifle reproduction from that era can be pretty unpleasant to see on a clean hit. But the cavitation effects are much lower and more evenly distributed on an imperfect shot. The 5.56 carves a smaller wound channel (even if it tumbles!), but in ballistic gel you get these massive and really traumatic-looking temporary distortions, caused by the rate of energy release.

The gunnie community is split, and I'll admit that I don't know what to trust on it.

Historical efforts have focused on pure simulation models to measure pressure waves, but they're very assumption-heavy for lower-energy rounds, because even minor deformation and changes to the drag coefficient give drastically different outputs. Validating the models would genuinely help at least get an idea of what scale of event is going on.

This study just can't do it.

From your description, this smells like cargo-cult science, but I feel that this is not a field which has any excuse to be cargo-cult science.

That's fair, and if anything the optimistic case.

To be fair to most of the study's authors, it's a plausible one: these people are almost all medical side, the issues are physics (or electrical engineering) or statistics problems that aren't what these people focus on in their day-to-day life. The sensor distance problem and filter problem feels obvious if you've every worried about decoupling capacitors, but I'd guess most people don't think like that. That's a bit of an indictment of academia -- medical people should be the last group to just order random digikey sensors and not think very hard about experimental design, and medical professors should have easy access to technical experts who know what they don't -- but it's... an unfortunately common one.

... but the pessimistic case is that the musket thing isn't a one-off. There's a lot of decisions here that push toward a rewarding narrative, and it'd be easy for an academic to push a study to prove a point, rather than find the truth. At least one of them did, whether by intent or by extreme negligence.

I am very much not a gun nut, but I would rather have a 5.56mm NATO go through my arm than a musket ball... but I imagine getting hit by one was gruesome.

That's actually one of the matters of dispute. An actual musket would have had similar kinetic energy and carved a much wider wound channel as the 5.56 NATO, which is definitely gruesome, and there's very few human organs that like having a three-quarter-inch (or inch: soft lead deforms) hole drilled through them. Even a lower-round, 'small' flintlock rifle reproduction from that era can be pretty unpleasant to see on a clean hit. But the cavitation effects are much lower and more evenly distributed on an imperfect shot. The 5.56 carves a smaller wound channel (even if it tumbles!), but in ballistic gel you get these massive and really traumatic-looking temporary distortions, caused by the rate of energy release.

Sounds like somebody needs to shoot Grosskreutz's other arm with a musket! (ah... for science, in minecraft -- don't actually shoot this guy again please!)

The Kenosha incident did convince me that close-range 223 makes very nasty wounds though -- there is a significant muzzleloader hunting community one could draw from here -- unfortunately that's not one of my personal hobbies so IDK, but I'd be kind of surprised if a .75 ball didn't mostly just pencil even at close range? (a really big pencil mind you; an inch sounds about right)