Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?
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Notes -
Let me paint a picture.
Imagine a a person from a developing country. This person knows their home country is terrible and will talk at length on the how and why it is a complete disaster. It’s a combination of the system and the people that are the problem. The society is deeply screwed up for many reasons, but one of them is absolutely massive numbers of low quality people with questionable public hygiene and health.
This person is fed up and leaves. They travel halfway around the world a more wealthy and organized country, but one that’s either on the decline or on the brink of decline. This person shows up in the new country, takes a well paying job that could easily be filled by a local.
Now this person is likely one of the better people from their home country, but they inevitably bring a lot of their socio-cultural baggage with them. They fit right in with the local political party that is more than happy partner with immigrants in exchange for more political power. The person is hostile to the local customs and religion in their new country. In fact, the person goes out of their way to make sure everyone knows what a dim view they take of the historic religion of country that has persisted for thousands of years and dozens of generations. This person associates with other subcultures that are also hostile to the historic culture of the country.
I know I’m not saying anything here that hasn’t been said or thought a mission times but it’s still worth articulating. This person shows up in a new place and every action they take, intentional or otherwise, is destroying the this country’s culture. Remember, this hypothetical country the person went to is already on the brink. Heavily divided and new people like this matter on the margins. And this is not a one-off. In fact there are many other people doing the exact same thing every day.
Anyway, how should this person feel?Should they feel shame? Should others shame them? Do they have any responsibility to assimilate in their new home? Or least leave as little impact as possible.
This is a modern problem. In the US, immigrant communities historically were quite good at assimilating as Americans. Even today, the pressure to do so is lessened, but still exists. In Europe and Uk it seems there’s no such pressure. Immigration there at the scale we currently see is a purely modern phenomenon. And the immigrant communities are insular and shameless in their actions to change the their new countries. My original bias was that this is mainly a function of wealth and class and education. The people who act like this are poor and don’t know any better. I don’t think that’s right though. It seems to me that even this hypothetical immigrant, who would self identify as of the “better ones” has no shame about showing up in a new place and telling the incumbent people everything they’re doing wrong and agitating an already risky political situation.
What is to be done? Short of remigration, can it be fixed? I think it will be challenging since there’s often a political wedge in western democracies where half the country is using immigrants to expand their power base. Half measures will be stopped and fail.
Im not posting this to have a debate on immigration. We’ve done that many times. I’m more curious about what people think of the people who participating in this whole business. What motivations do they have? How should we react to them? Personally I have a pretty dim view of someone who would do something like this. And I’d want to understand how they feel about it. Is it intentional? Can they not help themselves with this behavior? What is it? What do we do?
I guess step one might be to at least point it out.
People generally don't walk around contemplating the societal implications of their actions, but for what it's worth I'll paraphrase what my relatives and others have had to say to me about it over the years. The mindset presented is I think to a large degree generalizable to different immigrant groups, but perhaps least so to Muslims for whom religion is a larger driver of behavior. Make of it what you will.
Q: Why did you come to America? And why [city] in particular?
A: We had a friend who said it was easy to find a job there.
Q: Did you always want to emigrate?
A: I didn't care either way. It was just for work.
Q: What did you think about Americans before you came here?
A: I thought they were all good looking like in the movies, handy like MacGyver, and smarter and harder working than us. How else could they have become so rich and built such wondrous technology?
Q: What do you think about Americans now?
A: They're fat, stupid, and lazy, and their food tastes like shit. The first time I saw a homeless person begging in the street I couldn't believe my eyes. I thought "You're not a cripple and are still young enough to work. Why the hell don't you have a job? You were born here! How could you have so thoroughly pissed away all your advantages in life to end up in this state?"
Q: If Americans are stupid and lazy, then where did all the technology come from?
A: The Americans a hundred years ago were different; they were like the ones I imagined in my head before. They came from poverty and built everything with their own hands, but their descendants are a bunch of spoiled brats who are letting it fall into ruin. This is an inevitable process with nations and families. My descendants will probably be like that too.
Q: Would you ever move back to your home country?
A: Of course not! It's hot and dingy and poor and [rant about local politics]. On second thought maybe when I'm old and retired. They treat their elders better there and don't throw them in nursing homes to rot.
Q: What do you think about the number of immigrants coming from your home country?
A: Obviously I don't want them all here; it was such a relief to get away from those people! But if my siblings or cousins want to come that's fine. Family is different.
Q: Do you want your children to be closer to American culture or their ancestral culture? What sort of future do you want for them?
A: What matters to me is that they have a good standard of living. Anyone who grows up here is going to be Americanized, but I speak my language to them because it's easier for me and because maybe it will give them international job opportunities in the future. If things remain fine in America they should stay, but if the economy is bad then they should leave and go someplace better.
Q: You're a naturalized citizen now. Does that make you an American?
A: What kind of stupid question is that? Of course I'm not an American! Don't insult me like that again.
Foreigners from poor countries are quite well aware that, even today, Americans are vastly more productive and advanced. Though, I grant, there's a contempt for your decadence - especially the homo shit.
Coping that America isn't that far ahead seems like a thing for Europeans, maybe. The Third World cope is more likely to be "the American Empire does it by robbing us"
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