This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
He's proposing that the British take steps to ensure asylum seekers are socialized and understand local laws and customs. Which is what they did and what everyone is complaining about.
I dispute the efficacy of "please don't rape children" pamphlets. I don't think you can actually "socialize" would-be child rapists with mandatory HR training.
More options
Context Copy link
There are many times in life that Doing Something that are so egregiously tone-deaf and counter-productive that they are more likely to make the problem worse. By producing this booklet, the government has almost certainly reduced the rate of assault 0%, but generated even more outrage about the problem and opposition to immigration. It would be too-clever-by-half for fiction; as it is, it's just sad.
Do you really think any rapist has had their mind changed by a brochure? How about one from a completely different culture? I note that the only examples of the brochure publicized are in English. Did some pathological progressive say it would be too racist to distribute them in meaningful languages?
I'm reminded of, during COVID, British Columbia producing propaganda encouraging LGBT+ people (well, we really know which letter, but still) to use gloryholes to avoid face-to-face contact and reduce the spread of COVID. This ran concurrent to advice that people not host holiday parties or visit their dying relatives. Or, like, 90% of similar "harm reduction" ideas. Or the XKCD about voting machines, from back when it was funny.
I mean, yes? What, do you think all non-Europeans are just animals that can't understand words? How do you propose to teach someone the rules of a society - should we strap them down Clockwork Orange-style? Or just chemically castrate them as a prerequisite for asylum?
I know, I know, the real solution is: let's not allow anyone into the country that isn't already a Western liberal. It's a bit late for that though.
Obviously this brochure isn't the complete solution, but it's a step in the right direction that admits to the problem and tries to address it.
I guess it's whether you think the modal immigrant rapist is a mistake theorist or a conflict theorist. Shabir Ahmed moved to the UK when he was six, he absolutely knew the rules. But he also thought that white slags were okay to rape and that Pakistanis were '...the supreme race, not those white bastards' (an exact quote from his trial).
I don't think these guys are children who don't realise that rape is wrong. I think they consider it a wrong (as in, a wrong was done to me) but their circle of empathy doesn't extend to the women of their host society.
More options
Context Copy link
Maybe it's my failure of imagination but my experience with criminals is that they are not dissuaded by brochures. I find it hard to swallow that there's much overlap between "people that think women are second-class citizens, think rape of an unconscious person is acceptable, etc" and "people that are convinced to not do something because of a finger-wagging brochure." I just- I won't say strictly impossible, it's probably not a true null set, but there's probably not many people going "oh I was gonna go rape that 12 year old, but this brochure telling me that's not nice convinced me not to."
Now that is an impressive lack of charity!
I do rather doubt that English is their first language, for the relevant population at hand. I also doubt that potential rapists are dissuaded by polite pamphlets when there's probably no consequences anyways.
Scott's famous pieces like Radicalizing the Romanceless and Untitled come to mind. The kind of person that needs to be told this and hasn't already learned it is not the kind of person that's going to change their mind by reading.
IIRC Denmark requires migrants to attend language and culture classes to receive any benefits, but doesn't strap them down.
Deporting anyone that refuses to attend the class seems like a fine standard, but since the UK won't even deport rapists if they can avoid it, it's a lost cause.
Second best time to plant a tree and all that. They could at least stop accepting more, but that's apparently too difficult too.
Reasonable punishment for the rapists among them, at least. But alas, someone decided they have a right to recidivate instead.
I'll concede to a little hyperbole, but I was responding to the question 'has any rapist had their mind changed' - not, is this brochure the best way to change minds, but literally 'I don't think a single one of these people could be convinced to stop raping'.
Anyway, I think there's two groups you're conflating. Rapists in modern cultures are generally sociopaths who don't care that what they're doing is wrong. But rapists from these immigrant communities are much more common than the incidence of sociopathy. They see nothing wrong with things that in Western countries we consider rape (e.g. date rape, marital rape, rape of those from a lower caste) because they are from a culture that sees these things as normal. They're not raping because they don't care about the rules, but because they are following different rules. It follows, then, that part of the solution must be educating them on the new rules. Not the whole solution, but a start at least.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think people are primarily complaining about how they did it, rather than what.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link