This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The political goal of post-WW2 British decolonialisation was to hand colonies that had become obviously unprofitable over to governments able and willing to prevent their territory being used by the USSR. I don't think we even pretended that the point was to set up durable democracies.
On that basis, decolonialisation in East Asia was a win (notoriously against serious opposition in Malaya), South Asia was a draw (India was more sympathetic to the USSR than the West, but took nonaligned status seriously), the Middle East was a win (apart from Egypt where we were beaten by American-backed communists who would go on to double-cross the US and side with the USSR), and sub-Saharan Africa was somewhere between a draw and a loss.
Some weren't unprofitable until after the nationalism / shooting had started.
Palestine was a win?
Is your assessment of sub-Saharan Africa now, or at some prior point post independence?
Israel isn't and wasn't pro-USSR. Jordan (which got the West Bank) isn't and wasn't pro-USSR. Egypt (which got Gaza) wasn't pro-USSR until American-backed communists under Nasser couped the British-backed government. So a win by the criterion I stated.
My assessment of sub-Saharan Africa is that Ghana, Zambia and Zimbabwe were pro-USSR during the Cold War, which was a failure of British policy. I don't think the people making decisions in postwar Britain were thinking forward to a future where the USSR no longer existed, so I don't think we can assess their success on the basis of sub-Saharan Africa today.
Because Isreal being pro-USSR would have been horrible?
If containment is the metric for success then Jordan is an example of success.
The Free Officers weren't communists, and they weren't American-backed. They were nationalist army officers, several with Muslim Brotherhood ties, and one of the new regime's first acts was to crush a communist-led strike at Kafr el-Dawwar and hang two of the organisers. Nasser kept Egyptian communists in prison camps through most of his rule, including during the years he was taking Soviet weapons. Alignment with Moscow came in 1955, three years after the coup, and persisted until ~76.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link