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America specifically has popularized many ways by which you can torture people and not leave a mark. So if a prison institution were committed to torturing their death row inmates and believed they could hide those acts, and I don't know why that would become the case if you were to not execute those inmates in public, they could presumably do just that.
Most modern western nations don't execute people, full stop. The ones who did public executions dropped the practice before the turn of the 20th century. Did they do so in the past? Yes, but 12 year olds working in factories for 14 hours a day was also a thing in the past, but is not associated with 'western values'.
I don't know. I based it on your reply to me here, where you acted with incredulity towards the assumed legitimacy of the targets of Nidal Hasan. Who were all but one, as far as I can tell, directly involved with the US military in one way or another. Alongside that I think the Fox News interview was very emblematic of exactly the kind of viewpoint blindness that I see afflicting many Americans.
As an example, from the Fox interview which another person thought would make people less sympathetic to Nidal, acting like a military base is a 'place of trust' and that the military personnel therein where defenseless, and therefor the attack was cowardly. And that if Nidal had honor, he would have challenged the American servicemen to hand to hand combat. I mean, it takes me a while to get past the absurdity of hearing such things said, but to examine it further, did the US military conduct itself with such honor? Or did they kill close to half a million civilians through war campaigns across the middle east? Where none of those men, women and children in a place of trust?
I'm not surprised when Americans who consider themselves reasonable and open minded rise on their hindlegs whenever the legitimacy of their tremendously stupid and murderous zionist foreign policy is questioned. Because despite their beliefs about themselves as being reasonable and open minded, they're often actually not all that. They just egotistically believe that about themselves, whilst acting with complete disregard for anyone and anything but themselves and their preconceived notions of 'America's interest'.
And to follow your point about open minded American literary figures, as dramatic as all the media Americans make about the atrocities they commit can be, whilst cathartic for the American, doesn't actually absolve Americans of the reality of those atrocities that they committed. It's actually quite perverted to murder hundreds of thousands of people and then write a book about how horrifying that was. And then make a big deal about how bad you feel about that. But then just repeat the process as soon as some foreign policy idiot theorists conception of America's hegemony gets threatened.
As I said, we have a different definition of what a national is. You think it's the stamp from the government or similar. Which is a historically absurd definition that contradicts the etymology of the word 'nation'. I think it's your ancestry. If you don't want to engage with the topic, fine, but these assertions are inane. A person born of two Palestinian parents is Palestinian. He proved that with his actions as well.
The point I am trying to get at as regards executions is that appearances are important, and executing people in secret is a bad appearance. Even if you don't think people's executions should be public, you shouldn't want witnesses removed. Even if you can secretly torture people without leaving marks (which yes, we can) you should not act in such a way as to needlessly arouse suspicion that you are doing so.
The problem with Nidal Hasan's target wasn't that he targeted soldiers. Iran has killed somewhere between a dozen and two dozen soldiers in our war with them and none of the American commentators on here have acted like that was illegitimate in the same way that Hasan's was (or as far as I can remember, at all) because Hasan is an American who turned his gun on his countrymen.
I don't think you can point me to a single star-spangled flag waver on the Motte that has argued that Artesh soldiers, acting in the normal course of their duties, should be executed for the deaths of US soldiers. I think you are mistaking your own ideas about what Americans think with what they actually say they believe. Perhaps you have had other experiences off of the Motte that I can't speak to, but what you are describing of your experiences here does not comport with what I recognize.
If you are a soldier and particularly an officer, then yes, a military base is a place of trust, and generally stateside on a military base US soldiers are disarmed, and will go to jail if they carry a weapon on base. (This is a sorry and facile state of affairs, and I think the current admin may be working to change it, which is good).
I am not sure I would say Hasan is a coward but shooting unarmed people is not generally what is associated with courage. I don't think Hasan acted much differently in terms of personal courage than any mass shooter, in the sense that he was brave enough to accept being shot by cops but not brave enough or willing enough to accept defeat to engage armed people from the start. I think that his target set could in some sense be seen as more "legitimate" than bin Laden's in the sense that they were primarily military, but also that his infamy should be greater because he betrayed a position of trust and violated the oath he took.
Did American troops kill close to half a million civilians during the Global War on Terror? No, they did not. The majority of civilian casualties throughout the Global War on Terror were not caused by US troops. I suspect you know this, which is why you used the phrase "through war campaigns" thus absolving the people who actually literally did kill civilians of their actions and rhetorically placing it on people who were innocent of their deaths, while at the same time providing a defense (a motte, if you will) if someone pointed out the inaccuracy.
I think it is completely fine to criticize the outcome of the Global War on Terror (indeed, I have done it myself) and to say that the GWOT led to hundreds of thousands of deaths. I think it is wrong to completely ignore consequentialist reasoning. But saying that the United States killed half a million citizens across the Middle East is no more sensible than saying Al Qaeda killed hundreds of thousands of Middle Easterners through war campaigns across the globe – arguably less sensible, since after all Al Qaeda attacked the States.
Off of the top of my head, there are only two Americans who could reasonably qualify, and I don't think either of them felt bad about what they did, or ever pretended to.
Very well. I shall expect you, then, in the spirit of self-consistency, to refer to Trump as a European leader going forward :)
We agree that appearances are important. What we don't agree on is whether or not killing someone in private is 'secret' or not. How you could maintain that it would be, despite the American legal system is beyond me still. You keep asserting these caveats and scenarios that just aren't necessitated by anything. You can execute someone with witnesses and not have the event be public and without any risk of that person being tortured. There is no elevated arousal of suspicion regarding torture. You just keep asserting that there is and it's completely baseless beyond the average torture conditions in US prisons.
No, this is you looking at things from your American perspective. From the perspective of a Palestinian who is of a different ideological persuasion, America is still factually engaged in active warfare against people in the middle East. The soldiers in Fort Hood were not his countrymen or comrades but enemy combatants who play an active role in a military organization that has killed countless civilians in pursuit of an evil zionist ideology.
Regardless of him being a 'traitor', is a US army base a valid target? Does the US army kill innocent civilians? If the answer to these questions is yes, then what is this even about? The sympathy argument made in the Fox News interview is now even more inane than it was prior. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Inshallah.
I don't understand the point here. Iranian solders don't get to decide on when the war begins. The US just bombs them at an opportune time to the celebration of plenty of Americans. To the US that's a legitimate act of war. Why would Nidal have to operate by different rules?
If you are a combatant and see an enemy military base, it's a target. Do you see how you're just not engaging with a perspective that's not American? How the only way many Americans parse events is through American eyes? And how you repeatedly assert this frame again and again and never engage with anything beyond it?
Some might even say that killing the innocent makes you a valid target for just retribution. But many Americans seem incapable of understanding that other people also feel that way when they conceptualize of all the innocents killed by Americans.
Maybe this is a point of confusion but the exact number doesn't matter. Pick any number of thousand that you want. Are you pretending you don't understand the moral culpability of soldiers in service of an evil regime? How does America justify killing Iranian soldiers? The same way Nidal does when justifying the killing of American soldiers.
We were talking about public opinion. Maybe I can rephrase it so you better understand:
It's actually quite perverted to support the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and then read a book about how horrifying that was for the victims. And then make a big deal about how bad you feel about that. But then just repeat the process as soon as some foreign policy idiot theorists conception of America's hegemony gets threatened.
If you were serious about that conversation I would consider it, considering how ethnically split America is. It was basically complex colony of a wide range of Europeans. Held together by a common capacity to cooperate. Now it's unraveling through a host of ethnic contradictions as the share of non-Europeans who can't cooperate weigh the entire project down. I'd still prefer to refer to people of European ancestry who have lived in America for some time as Americans, for the same reason I don't refer to Germans as Europeans. But there's nuance there.
You specifically proposed "killing them in a manner not publicized and then announcing that they have been executed." That is secretive. I agree that the current American method of execution, which permits witnesses to attend, is not secret.
Actually, I am describing what I've seen on the Motte, a place we both comment on. You claimed, without providing any evidence, that "you and other pro-America guys on here...ultimately draw the distinction between good and bad, with America on the good side of every conflict" and are "completely incapable of recognizing any hostile act taken against them from the viewpoint of its perpetrators." I don't think this is an accurate description of Americans on here, even the ones I've argued with about foreign policy.
What's your point here? I don't think anyone is denying that Hasan sees the world something along these lines, although I am not sure this is exactly how he would articulate it.
Because
And Nidal is not a combatant of a foreign army. What I am articulating here isn't some weird "American" perspective, we have customary traditions and international law that describe these sorts of things. Nidal doesn't fit the definition of an enemy combatant.
Did any of the people Nidal shot kill innocent people?
Getting things right generally matters. If you are unfamiliar with the dynamics of the Global War on Terror and who killed hundreds of thousands of citizens in the Middle East, perhaps you should withhold some of your judgment until you have a better understanding of what actually happened.
Are you pretending American and Iranian soldiers are co-belligerents? Or than American soldiers swore an oath to uphold and protect the Iranian Constitution?
Does it have to be hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Isn't it perverted to support the murder of...one person?
In your definition, a black guy who ancestry has been in America for hundreds of years, or a Native American guy whose ancestry has been in America for thousands of years, is less American than Donald Trump, who's a latecomer.
It is not secretive to openly process someone through the justice system, sentence them to death in a fair trial, house them in a a valid (for US standards) prison facility on death row, and then unceremoniously kill them. You provide no argument, you've just asserted that this is secretive somehow again and again. If you believe these institutions are working in secret, make that case. If you don't believe that, give a justification for why institutions that are not working in secret would start if the method of execution was changed from being a publicly broadcasted event to a private one. Why would that elevate the risk of torture?
But that is exactly my experience both here and elsewhere when talking about Us foreign policy. And is in part what you are doing in this very conversation.
This is the perspective of another person. I'm sure he would articulate it differently, but this is what I presume motivates many middle Eastern terrorists.
But you don't engage with it. Instead you assert the American perspective. Despite all the innocents killed by the US. How are you not seeing this? It reminds me of this exchange between Michael Scheuer and the House Homeland Security Committee.
From his perspective he was. He sees no reason to dignify the sanctity you or others reserve for the US and its actions on the world stage. And as he demonstrated, and like America has demonstrated against many a innocent victim across the globe, those rules and laws are just a piece of paper. Those US soldiers are dead just like those civilians are. If you want to pretend that the motives of the shooter don't matter, go ahead. But I think they do. And I think that a military like the American one, that has done some many horrible things in the service of a demented foreign policy can't play victim or hide being international law, sitting on a throne of dead women and children. That were to the US at the time 'convenient targets' they later choose to call 'Collateral Damage' after the women and children dead are counted.
Can you acknowledge how absurd it would sound to a person who identifies with the victims of those attacks that people representing the organization that committed those atrocities are complaining that they themselves were attacked in a 'place of trust' that's actually a military base?
Here you are asserting your American frame. There's no argument. Just an assertion that, to you, Nidal did wrong based on specific premises. I don't think oathbreaking is the main problem when people commit a mass shooting. I think you're just being obtuse to rhetorically distance yourself from the moral arguments made by the victims of Americas zionist foreign policy. Trying to qualify the event through ways that can't be equated with the actions of US armed forces. But when we do look at the actual issue at hand, which is the killing, there are plenty of equivocal examples to be drawn on.
Did any of the civilians bombed by the US?
I'm familiar with the death toll and the number I mentioned is generally accurate, depending on how much faith you put in US universities doing research into the topic. I already said, however, that the total number would not matter to the point of contention, given that it's very high in any case. High enough to make a mockery of any US serviceman who pretends to be a victim when killed. Especially so in Yemen.
What do you think this chain of replies is about? You said Americans were generally well versed in the moral cost of the actions they support. Noting several popular authors who you allege are read in America. I maintained that many Americans generally were not, given the repeat support they show for bombing innocent civilians.
So to incorporate your example, yes. If someone murdered an innocent person on command of someone hoping to benefit some twisted foreign policy, then wrote a book about how haunting the face of their victim is as it twists in pain in their dreams. And then someone else reads this, says it affected them dearly, and then goes out and supports killing innocents in search of the same gain the murderer sought, I would call that perverted, yes. The emotions felt by the reader were purely self gratifying and perverse. The emotional turmoil just another experience to be had.
No, I don't understand this. I'm saying that when you don a military uniform, you represent that force.
For the most part, yes. And this is demonstrated by the plurality of blacks living in America today. And the history of the native Americans, who never in their thousands of years of history on the continent did anything to make it into America as it is generally known to be. That was all 'Europeans'.
It's by definition more secretive the less transparent it is.
What do you mean, I don't engage with it. I have at least some understanding of it (despite what you might think) but I don't agree with it. Do you?
This might be true. I don't agree with his perspective. Do you?
I don't think I've been pretending they don't matter.
Well, do you agree with collective guilt, or not?
If it is wrong to kill people who are not directly guilty of a crime, then what Nidal did was wrong. If it's not, why are you complaining that the U.S. did it?
I sense, generally, that you disagree with actions taken by the United States government and therefore sympathize with Nidal. But I'm not getting a clear ethical framework for why you think what Nidal did was right and what the U.S. did was wrong.
Well...usually if there's premises there's an argument.
What's your argument that what Nidal did was good?
I think there's actually a huge moral valiance to oathbreaking. A single person killing his wife is much more evil than a single person who uses a nuclear weapon to destroy an entire carrier battle group, killing thousands of people including any civilians who happen to be onboard. Do you disagree?
See my question above.
The link that you provided does not substantiate your suggestion that the US military killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Middle East throughout the Global War on Terror. It substantiates that hundreds of thousands of people were killed, which I did not dispute.
You, of course, will not be able to find any actual polling or research suggesting that a plurality of Americans support bombing innocent civilians.
You will argue that they support it from a consequentialist framework because they agree with actions that lead to the bombing of innocent civilians.
Very well: are you opposed to any action that might lead to the deaths of innocent civilians? Do you condemn all acts that lead to the deaths of innocent civilians?
And Nidal Hasan chose to don that uniform. He should have represented that force, instead of some other force (be that the Taliban, Palestine, the mob, whoever.)
Kind of a weird thing to say, given that nobody can think of American without thinking of cowboys, and nobody can think of cowboys without thinking of Indians.
So is every process that is not publicly broadcasted 24/7. That doesn't mean that if not broadcast, they necessitate legitimate and reasonable concerns for malfeasance. Especially to the level of torture that goes beyond general operations of US prisons.
I gave an example in my post, I'll give one again for clarity to better express what I mean: Here I asked a question you did not engage with that we are now engaging with.
From my perspective we are now finally getting to the point, posts later, where you engage with the moral point that's been leveraged. This is what I meant when I said you were not engaging with the point.
Factually the US has committed atrocities against civilians in the middle East. Their military has been pivotal in carrying these atrocities out. To that extent, yes I agree that US servicemen are legitimate targets for reprisal attacks. I wish those attacks did not take place just as much as I wish the US stopped murdering the innocent when chasing after a demented zionist policy. But morally there is no question. Just like, morally, one could say that the US had a legitimate interest after 9/11 to go after Osama bin Laden and drop a few bombs. But they far overstepped what was morally permissible.
So to further clarify the point of contention that relates to the viewpoint I expressed and you replied to: Do you agree that when deciding to start a war against Iran on the basis that it's ruled by an an evil regime that hates America, as is so often alleged, that Iranian soldiers and their bases are legitimate targets, yes or no? Or do you only believe that US servicefolk are exempt from being valid targets when others take issue with how America has been governed? I'm not asking for what formal rules about declarations and acts of war say. I'm asking you, morally, what is permissible. Or do you, like many Americans I converse with, instinctively believe that Americans are of greater moral value to others? Where if they commit atrocities or represent the regime other allege are evil, that they can not be held accountable or be 'legitimately' targeted in the same way the US does to others?
No. But I also think there's a difference between a soldier and a civilian. And the rules of engagement that are set by both parties. But I already specifically asked you a question about this here:
And here:
You replied that the distinction to this obviously moral contention being presented was that Nidal was American, and not capable of carrying out a legitimate act of war. To which I asserted that you were not engaging with the point:
The way I experience this, the American frame here is simple. The only legitimate ways to wage war are conveniently conventional and appeal to the perceived strengths of the US military. Dropping bombs on targets of convenience via air is legitimate, strapping a bomb to your chest and walking it towards your target of convenience is not. The CIA doing espionage operations that lead to a military target getting bombed or otherwise assassinated is legitimate. A lone Palestinian pretending to be American and then shooting a bunch of military targets is not.
If the US had legitimate interest in the region but killed a bunch of civilians in the process, I'd still understand Nidal's viewpoint. I'd just admonish those who want to pretend that you can import the people you just bombed and not face the consequences. And I'd likewise want to diminish those voices that wanted to pretend that there are no morally grey areas in war and that it doesn't carry a cost.
I think that killing good people is bad. And that when good people start killing one another, some want to say that there can only be good people on their side, not the other. I think those people are not just wrong but acting in a way that is morally blind and moving towards evil.
That still would be completely immaterial to the point being discussed, which I accused you of trying to distance yourself from. Not that I even believe you to actually hold this position. Unless I'm gravely misunderstanding you and you take issue with the CIA and any espionage operations the US engages in or benefits from that rely on spies or similar 'oathbreakers'.
Outside of that I don't manage to relate to your hypothetical. Feel free to clarify. For instance, oathbreaking in a marriage can mean murder, sure, but also infidelity. My point would be that murder is worse and the oathbreaking largely irrelevant when the stakes have been raised that much. And I feel more emotional relation to the weight of betrayal from someone you lived with and trusted, rather than someone who made a vow. I'd argue the vow itself is functionally ceremonial and irrelevant in the modern world. As it does not represent anything real or serious to many people. Regardless of whether we think it should or not. Whilst feeling of betrayal or the knowledge that someone wants or wanted to murder you carries more of the emotional weight.
You're going to have to clarify. From the article:
We can cut the number in half if you want, or more. The moral valance of the argument still stands. But I don't understand where you are coming from when you say that the link does not substantiate what I said.
The majority of Trump supporters are in favor of bombing targets even with a great risk of civilian casualties. That's a valid plurality, I'd say. It's an interesting article in any case, that validates my overarching point as well:
Beyond that, if you're willing to risk your own civilians as victims then you can do that. I won't listen to anyone try to play victim about that after the fact though. Which is, similarly what irked me about the Fox News interview. So long as the response is proportional, I'd say it's valid. But that both parties should start recognizing the cost and the evil they are engaging in and stop.
Now you're just playing wordgames. The original point was about the validity of military targets. Nidal chose to wear that uniform and then used that uniform to advantage himself on the battlefield against his enemy. You can execute people for that, which America and others have done. But that's, again irrelevant to the point.
European peoples would have recorded their own culture and history just the same. And we would be none the poorer for it to not have stories of cowboys and Indians. As we would not know of that history existing. Just like we now, today, do not know what history or modern life could have been had the Indians not been there. And even if we did, I would likely celebrate it, as that would very likely have meant less human suffering. But that's purely hypothetical.
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