site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34504 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

So why wouldn't be defecting your way and securing a future trajectory and then stopping the defecting once you enter iterated game territory not the best option?

It is, 100% the most rational option. And I don't think it's always unprincipled to cheat - tit for tat is also sensible strategy. The caveat is that I'm coming at it from the other direction - knowing what I now know, I lost way too much sleep for little real gain.

I ditched integrity as a young adult for my job, and I only started reading Scott after rediscovering my principles, having abandoned them on the basis of game theory, my belief that we had hit bottom and the idea that I could do a lot more good from a position of power.

But when I fell (got metooed, although it wasn't called that back then), I fell hard. On one hand, it either triggered or was accompanied by the onset of hereditary mental illness (which is to say not depression, although I got that too naturally) so it probably wouldn't be as hard on you as it was on me. But on the other hand, you are smarter than me, and the smarter you are the stronger your conscience. Note that all of our current "elites" seem to have clinical depression and imposter syndrome, if not n/bpd - none of them can live with themselves. And most of them aren't even particularly bright.

However, even though I have only gotten more pessimistic about the world over the past two years, I am nothing but optimistic about my life now. It took a while, but I have bounced back, and because I did it without compromising my principles I don't feel imposter syndrome, I am proud of my achievements (and wish I could brag about them without revealing too much of my identity, because I have a feeling some people interpreted my previous post about envy as saying give up on ambition) and I am surrounded by people I would trust with my life. For example I was very concerned for society when the covid vax mandates were gaining momentum (I live in Australia these days), but I was never afraid for my own livelihood, my job was always secure even though it requires interaction with the public and I made it clear I wouldn't get the vaccine. If I didn't have any friends or family I would be uncancellable.

Then again, maybe I just didn't have what it takes to succeed at it and you'll be alright. Just whatever you do, don't forget that it's temporary.

  • The caveat is that I'm coming at it from the other direction - knowing what I now know, I lost way too much sleep for little real gain.

That could be the case, but is it that you were wrong about your past actions and the future actually balanced out or you just didn't care for the lack of whatsoever you were lamenting?

But when I fell (got metooed, although it wasn't called that back then), I fell hard.

Because of a lack of integrity?

But on the other hand, you are smarter than me

Disagree.

Note that all of our current "elites" seem to have clinical depression and imposter syndrome, if not n/bpd - none of them can live with themselves. And most of them aren't even particularly bright.

I'm not sure this statement is empirically true. There is a strong coping aspect to believing this, so I am somewhat skeptical on those grounds to begin with.

However, even though I have only gotten more pessimistic about the world over the past two years, I am nothing but optimistic about my life now.

This is good to hear. What do you think was the change the resulted in change of mindset? As in be descriptive about the change.

Then again, maybe I just didn't have what it takes to succeed at it and you'll be alright. Just whatever you do, don't forget that it's temporary.

It definitely is as per my own experience shared in another post. But the whole thing left a very strong taste in my mouth, I am not entirely sure if I will ever get rid of it, or that I should get rid of it. Knowing the bad helps you appreciate the good.

God fucking damn it I always do this, I spend so much time chopping and changing a post up that I forget the point of the post, here being what the hell integrity has to do with any of this. Sorry dude.

So basically when I was metooed my friends and family stuck by me because they knew I didn't do anything, but many acquaintances - professional and casual - dropped away. Most of them wouldn't even talk to me, but those who would explained that they wanted to believe me, but I had given them reason not to, specifically I had lied or cheated in their presence, so they didn't know if they could trust me now. It wasn't that I had lied once and was now untrustworthy of course, but I introduced a reason for them to doubt me, and given the social dynamics in place (hyper progressive at least cosmetically, and I basically represented the old guard of 'true' liberal/left libertarians and closeted conservatives while she represented the new front of identity politics and Marxism) there was limited value in believing me, so since I gave them a reason not to, they had to take it.

So after I fell I was pretty down on myself and everyone/thing else for a while. It wasn't fair that I lose everything over a lie, I never got anyone fired with my lies. Which is true, but after a while I came to discover it is also beside the point. There's no balancing out of the universe, but I deserved what I got because I made it happen. If I had maintained my integrity I wouldn't have been in a position to be metooed, there would be no angle.

I can't remember the specific moment I decided I had to change, it was never like an epiphany - "why don't you try not cheating and lying?" It was more like I knew what I was doing wrong the whole time and I just had to admit it to myself. I guess what opened my eyes was when my former boss told me that he thought it wasn't impossible I had been there. I had thought we were closer than that. So maybe I just massaged everything in my head to make it seem like integrity was the issue because I wanted integrity to be the issue.

But it was definitely embracing integrity (not just integrity of course, the conclusion I came to was basically the right is right, you fix things starting with yourself and working outwards, fixing society won't fix you (side note: although as someone raised by television I fought so hard to try and figure out a way to still call it left wing - I didn't want to be uncool) that turned me back around. There weren't YouTube tutorials or wikihows on how to rebuild your life after hitting the bottom back then (there probably are now), so I let my conscience and philosophy guide me. I started reading Scott and TLP and I focused on improving myself. I still get bitter about it sometimes, and I have black moods where I think it's the only way to get ahead, but I think you are better off with it than without it.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats