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What you said was that I made a bunch of claims that I did not, in fact, make. I don't know why you're incapable of admitting you're wrong or apologising for making up things about another user.
The ordinary everyday meaning. This isn't complicated. By "works", I mean: "If you use 2+2=4 when measuring out ingredients for a dish, you'll get the right proportions. If you use 2+2=4 when designing a plane, you'll get a plane that flies. If you use 2+2=4 when figuring out how much change to give a customer, you'll give them the correct amount of change".
This is obviously entirely different to the way you used "works" in your facetious unicorn analogy, where you mean something like "telling this story accomplishes my goals".
Now please define exactly what you mean by "so", "please", "do", "not", "leave", and so on, for every other commonplace word you used.
Yes. Your English is poor. I assume your native language is something Eastern European (judging by how often you omit articles). While I recognise it's a feat to discuss complicated things in your second language, you could maybe have a bit more humility concerning whether the communication issue might be on your end.
It is unusual to describe "the abstract concept of numbers" as concrete, given that "abstract" and "concrete" are pretty close to antonyms.
Agreed, of course.
Already covered this. Mathematics consists of models, which you can think of as games or systems consisting of rules. Numbers are elements within particular mathematical models. Numbers are things like 5, 2.45, and 1,000.
I have no idea what this kind of question means, for any subject. "How is an apple existing" -- what does this mean?
You seem confused. Numbers are abstract concepts. They aren't like apples or horses; they're not in a location. That's like asking "where is justice existing?"
I never said you did, nor would I think you capable.
But you said you were giving me a simple-word explanation of your analogy, and used the phrase "modal collapse". You're under no obligation to give me a simple-word explanation, but if you pretend to be giving me one while using nonsense phrases, I'm going to point it out.
You know exactly what I want, as I've said it explicitly twice now. You literally just offered what I want: a plain English explanation of your analogy, without using any bullshit phrases like "modal collapse". You don't need to define individual words or phrases, just say your analogy using normal words.
There's a literal wiki article on Transubstantiation. That doesn't mean that Transubstantiation isn't meaningless bullshit; the existence of a wikipedia page doesn't save it.
If you think your point is meaningful, you can explain it in simple words. You keep refusing to do this and pretending not to understand.
Ok, buddy. Maybe learn to spell, as a bare minimum, before accusing other people of being stupid.
This is just pragmatic argument. But again, did you ever try to ask question of why this is the case? The so called The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics? There is no easy answer to this. Many people are just saying "math works", which is their presupposition, a bling belief in the "Truth" of math. But it is still unreasonable, do you have any explanation of why is that and how math works? Otherwise it is just case of blind belief, something akin to Pythagorean cult.
How is it different? I use something, it accomplishes my goals which is the way of how I decide what is true or not. Again, if this is not the case then tell me your epistemological principle and how you decide what is truth.
Thank you for your ad hominem. At least I know how to read wiki page of Gödel's ontological proof.
Yes, for somebody discussing in bad faith. It is absolutely common to use the word "concrete" in realm of abstraction. For instance things like "present a concrete proof" or "give me a concrete example of an odd number". Is this a novel linguistic lesson from Eastern European for you?
Oh, numbers are "elements". Okay. Unicorns are elements. They are things like Pinkie Pie or Fluttershy. Again, what are the numbers, why are they and how are they. Going in epicycles and naming numbers as "concepts" or "elements" and giving examples is not enough. Or we can also play this game - God is an all powerful being and as an example he consists of three persons in a Godhead - Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. It is my assertion. Please accept it just because I said it.
So how do numbers exist? They do exist without location, they are omnipresent. Wow, we are getting into quite supernatural territory here, numbers are omnipresent and posses one of the godly attribute. How do you know this is the case? Did you directly tap with your senses into number axis and felt all the numbers in their infinitude? How can empiricist prove existence of abstract concept such as numbers in the first place?
You said yourself that you are well versed with Godels ontological proof and related concepts. I gave you wiki page for the proof as well as for the modal collapse. I do not have to continue with this, just argue with wiki page that is written in plain English and then give me further questions. Also I hope that you remember that I used it as an analogy.
@Amadan, I'd appreciate some mod feedback on whether there's an appropriate way to reply to this, if you have time.
So far, georgioz has yelled "FUCK YOU" at me, called me simple and stupid multiple times, created strawmen of my position (including misattributing quotes from other users to me), and repeatedly evaded requests to just explain his position by insinuating that I can't read.
You gave him a one-day ban for the "FUCK YOU".
You then also gave me a one-day ban for responding to him with condescension and snark. (Subjectively, less condescension than he was throwing at me.) Which... fair enough, I guess, in isolation. I could've been a bit less patronising. (Though the most patronising thing I said, "ok buddy", is a phrase you yourself have also used in this thread.) There are also a few places where I'm being blunt and direct (e.g. calling a phrase "nonsense") for the sake of trying to clarify the conversation, but that could be read as part of a pattern of condescension, even when that's not the intent.
But a one-day ban for "FUCK YOU" + you're simple/stupid + condescension, and a one-day ban for being condescending in return, doesn't seem proportionate. After @naraburns banned me a month ago for responding to bait with too much heat, I've tried to learn that lesson (which required me to get over a lot of frustration at that ban). This time, I didn't escalate even after being told "FUCK YOU" -- I just said "excuse me?" -- but I still get the same ban?
I'm pretty sure that If I said "FUCK YOU" to Amadan out of nowhere, I'd get much more than a one-day ban.
Now georgioz is continuing the conversation. I think there are actually useful things to discuss here, which is why I kept trying to get him to explain his position. But I'm getting the same attacks:
I don't think we are symmetrically "behaving terribly". I'm asking georgioz to explain his positions in his own words, which is kind of the entire point of this place. In return, he keeps pointing me to wikipedia and telling me I can't read.
This isn't symmetric.
So, is there actually a way I can respond to this, that doesn't require me to be a punching bag? There are actually interesting discussions we can have around this. I want to have them. I'm trying to elicit that discussion (though yes, in a way that was too snarky). But it seems that I have to just accept being told "FUCK YOU", and being told I'm simple and stupid, and that I can't read; and that if I condescend at all in return, we're both "behaving terribly".
I'm frustrated because I did actually put effort into trying to make the conversation go somewhere useful. Yes, I could've (and should've) been less condescending. But if I'm going to be told I'm behaving terribly, regardless of how much effort or heat or aggression each person is putting in, it all just feels a bit pointless.
I'm not Amadan, but you tagged me, so I will point out that we actually tend to give much longer bans for straight up "fuck you"-type posts. In this case, Georgioz has an almost completely uninterrupted moderation record of several AAQCs. Because this is a reputation economy, we're much more likely to look at a user with a good record and say, "okay, not sure what's happening here, this person does not usually behave this way, maybe they are having a bad day" and we assign a lighter penalty than we normally would. If the behavior continues, the penalties do escalate!
The other half of this is that other people's bad behavior is never an excuse. The best way to respond will always be to respond within the remit of the rules; the second best thing to do is to not respond. When others are baiting you, dogpiling you, etc. remember that the goal is light, not heat, and responding to heat with heat only compounds the problem. We want to encourage discussion and we try to be reasonable about the fact that sometimes even productive discussions get a bit heated, but at some point we have to step in.
In this particular case, the penalties were light for both of you, which seems like the right call to me. These were "cool off" bans. But the length in part reflected your respective posting histories. This is the third time you've been moderated for letting people draw (or bait) you into a heated exchange. This is interesting to me in part because it suggests on the one hand that you are basically rule-abiding, which is great! But you seem to take other people's bad behavior as an excuse to respond in kind, but it's not.
More generally, this advice probably applies as much in life as on the Motte: if someone drops a "FUCK YOU" in your direction, unless you have an extremely solid plan for rapid de-escalation, you are almost certainly best off to disengage immediately.
EDIT: Looks like Amadan responded while I was thinking about this, so, there you go.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. And I basically agree with the stance as you've described it.
I just object to stuff like this:
You previously correctly called me out for this, and I modified my behaviour to not do this. When georgioz said "FUCK YOU", I didn't respond in kind.
I took your previous advice, as incredibly frustrating as that was. But you're still treating my behaviour as if I'm just going maximum heat in response to bait, which I'm not.
I agree with the reputation system, but it's absurd that it stretches to treating "FUCK YOU" + "you are stupid and simple and can't read" (not a quote) as equivalent to some calm, reactive condescension.
What I am trying to communicate is that the length of the ban is not strictly determined by the specific offense, so you are drawing a false equivalence in your perception of the ban lengths in this case. They are incommensurable.
Basically, you seem to be saying "georgioz got off light!" And we are saying, "yeah, he's a really good poster normally, so we let him off light this time, hopefully he was just having a bad day."
Or maybe instead you're saying, "I was punished too heavily!" Maybe so? But you admit you were engaged in condescension, despite it being reactive, and reactivity is exactly what you've been moderated for in the past. It's true that we frown heavily on telling other users to "fuck off." But that doesn't mean we don't frown on users for less vulgar ad hominem attacks.
I would just encourage you to not read too much into the precise length of anyone's bans, yours or others. It's not a science. It's just feedback.
I was previously modded for reacting with excessive heat.
When georgioz says "FUCK YOU", and I overlook it with nothing more than an "excuse me", I'm clearly not doing the same kind of reactivity as you've previously called out. I'm demonstrating a pretty significant level of restraint and non-reactivity.
(Also, "ad hominem"? I was condescending, but I didn't substitute insult for argument.)
No, I'm not. I am criticising the kind of moderation policy that leads to this outcome. People are absolutely going to compare bans, and it's unreasonable to just declare that it's some kind of fallacy to do so.
No, you know exactly what I'm saying: these bans are absurd and unjust, relative to each other. Declaring the two incommensurable doesn't retroactively change what I'm saying.
Reputation should only go so far. If someone can scream "FUCK YOU" at me, and tell me I'm simple and stupid and illiterate, it's a crappy moderation policy that gives me the same punishment for not being an unlimited punching bag.
Well yes, that too!
I agree that you showed some restraint. But you still wrote a rule-breaking post, and that's what counted against you here.
Ad hominem literally translates "to the man." Its use here identifies your excessive focus on georgioz and his characteristics, to the detriment of your engagement with the substance of your argument. When we talk about ad hominem in the context of moderation, it is not an academic critique of your grasp of informal reasoning, but rather a suggestion that you should spend less time casting aspersions on your interlocutor and more time addressing the substance of your discussion.
(Fun fact: I am a philosophy professor. I make my living, in part, teaching both formal and informal reasoning!)
I see. Well, it's an unforced error to insist on things that "I know" when I have not told you that I know them; as a rule, I am not hiding the ball on that. I can be mistaken. We can disagree. But I'm not pretending, and now you're making the same mistake with me as you made with georgioz.
But now that you've spelled it out more clearly, okay! You don't like the way we moderate based in part on reputation, as it sometimes leads to results that offend your sense of fair play. Your complaint has been noted. In hopes of managing your expectations: so far, the moderation team does not agree with your position on the matter, and has no plans to adjust our moderation approach in response to your complaints at this time.
No, this isn't what I said. I absolutely think reputation should be a factor. I'm suggesting that in this case, it's being used excessively.
That's my point! My comments were full of addressing the substance of the discussion.
I'm fairly sure you don't actually know that I had an excessive focus on georgioz and his characteristics. I suspect you're assuming it from a light skim of the conversation, without really reading what I was saying in detail.
Which is reasonable! I know that reading through the comments in detail is a massive chore for mods. I don't expect you to do it. But now you're telling me that I was fixated on georgioz, and spending lots of time throwing insults and aspersions at him, and that's not true.
Fair enough; I retract that. I felt it was reasonable that you would've understood that my complaint was the relative length of the bans -- otherwise I don't see why you'd bring up their supposed incommensurability -- but if you're telling me that wasn't clear, I accept that.
Sure. At the risk of making another unforced error: I strongly doubt you're saying this to manage my expectations. I think you're doing a little snarky put-down.
And that's fine! It's even kind of funny; from your perspective, I am being a pain. But we could maybe be a little more consistent on whether being condescending is against the rules or not.
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