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Right, my point here is that without reference to God 'morality' is an unintelligible term. We can talk about order, or smooth social functioning, or game theory -- all kinds of things! But those are not what we mean when we talk about morality. Morality is what is right above all those other concerns by dint of our relationship to our creator.
Well, yeah, if you define "morality" specifically to mean "doing the will of the Christian God", then it's definitely true that without the Christian God there can be no morality. But then this isn't a very useful statement.
We might more generally define "morality" as "actions in accordance with one's telos", which moves the problem back a step.
But it does leave us in more or less the same position, because now we need a telos, and that is not something we can give ourselves! Maybe 'survival' but that's a losing game at both the micro and macro scales, and we all know it. Also moloch, etc.
For most of Western history "morality" has meant precisely "actions in accordance with the will of our Creator," and a "good person" is one who acts accordingly.
In the pre-Christian West, a "good man" looked a lot more like Genghis Khan. He was the one who brought benefit to his people, typically at the horrific expense of others. Mercy, compassion, and so on were considered weaknesses, even to the point that the Roman goddess of such wasn't really. Clementia -- clemency -- is not the same thing. It's more like, the ability to overlook another's shortcomings to work together more effectively, as is beneficial for bringing temporal benefit to the people. A man who organized others to sail down the coast and rape, kill, loot, etc. was among the best of men.
Christianity changed a lot. All of a sudden it was considered wrong to, idk, kill inconvenient children, slaves, etc. All of a sudden there was this notion that the powerful had an obligation to the weak. And much, much more.
Now, an atheist can say something like, "Of course I can be moral! I can also perform common-sense game theoretical calculations with the aim of maximizing utilons!" But this is really not the same thing at all, and also I call BS on consequentialism because we are at best capable of tracking consequences to a few degrees out, after which we have no idea what the effects of our actions really are, and also I'm highly skeptical of the idea that "everyone matters" follows naturally.
Societies oriented toward a higher divine will (generally Abrahamic afaict) generated higher moralities. Within this moral ecosystem, defectors (atheists) were able to say, "But I don't need to believe in that telos to act the same as everyone else!" And to a point this is true, but it does suggest a frame within which atheism is a moral parasite. Able to crib, that is, but not to generate. And as a society takes its eyes off the telos, it naturally starts to backslide toward baseline human """morality""", which is not, imo, a good thing. But I can only make such normative statements because I'm still fixed on the telos.
Sure it is. Just not for you.
Genghis Khan was a good religious person acting according to the will of his creator, Tengri.
Atheists are 'defectors' to the morality-creating will of one more of such deities.
My morality is nothing compared to the will of tengri. Sure, I can 'parasite' off the morality of the religious when I pillage and rape, but I am incapable of generating something so beautifully circular.
You're the only one here talking about 'religion' like it's a useful or applicable category.
What is the difference between tengri's "good" will and your god's will?
That is a fantastic question. I'm actually writing a book somewhat along those lines. It's a really good challenge to try to figure out how to compress the answer.
The problem I'm running up against is that any angle I want to take would lean heavily on concepts that I don't think we have in common.
First I think I'd have to explain why pagan polytheism is real and true, which would take a lot of time. In the book I'm doing this by going back to the first cell in the ancient ocean and tracking evolution forward to establish how our minds work and what the gods are, and how they interrelate, and then establish that Christ is a real, observable force in the world (even from a ~secular perspective), and then get into what the Christian message actually is, which is unfortunately mostly unintelligible to people who don't first grasp the validity and veracity of both brutal selection processes (especially genetic) and (poly)theism.
Put another way: In the classical world people understood a lot of basic truths that have mostly been lost now, and the Christian message is mostly unintelligible outside of those. (Oh, and this is not an accident, but enemy action.)
I'm leaning pretty hard toward "I can't answer that for you right now and I'm sorry."
Let me float: There are gods, and then there is God, and these are... supremely different categories that play out in very different ways. The attempts I'm making to get more specific keep running me up against walls that I can't see how to overcome within the scope of this conversation. And I could nitpick and complain and get traction on any number of tangents here but they're ultimately nowhere close to central to the question.
Maybe I just need to suggest that Christianity is so much weirder than you know.
So, my apologies, and feel free to take this as an admission of at least momentary forfeit.
Have a good one man.
EDIT: Oh, but do feel free to ask more questions if you want.
All right then, keep your secrets. Good luck with euthyphro.
Well that I can talk about! It's a basic misunderstanding because Plato correctly perceived the gods but did not know about God, so his ability to reason about this was limited. I.e. The Euthyphro dilemma is only coherent in the context of paganism.
But I should take the question in the spirit in which it was intended and apply it to God rather than the gods (again, entirely different categories). So it's like this:
Is something good because God says it is good? Or does God say a thing is good because there is some higher standard to which God must conform?
Answer: No.
Goodness is rooted in the intrinsic and unchanging nature of God. It is neither arbitrary (God does not choose what is good) nor is it imposed externally (there is no higher authority to which God submits).
In other words, false dilemma, and always has been, and this has been addressed probably thousands if not millions of times in the last two thousand years, so it's confusing to me that people keep bringing it up. It's not like they weren't talking about this in AD 300 and giving the same answer that I am now.
N.b. I definitely phrased that poorly and I know it seems to imply that you're dumb or something, which is definitely not how I feel. I was an atheist for something like seven years and found it convincing too. Just, it turns out that, like almost any group, most Christians are not so bright and aren't very capable of understanding let alone defending their position, and especially in the West they've also lost touch with huge portions of their tradition that would shed light on the rest, so they're not even playing with a full deck as it were. This is a reflection on that sad situation, not any commentary on your competence. Thanks for the conversation.
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