This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There's a standard argument about gun control in the US that you hear a lot in the liberal bubble. Obviously, this argument does not appear to be very compelling to the anti-gun control side. It's pretty hard to find the counterarguments while embedded in the bubble, so I'm asking here in the hopes someone might explain them.
The argument comes from making a comparison between cars and guns. Both create about the same magnitude of danger when in the wrong hands, but cars are significantly more important for being able to function in modern society. Therefore guns ownership and usage should be regulated at least as strongly as cars are. In particular, car ownership has a strict licensing requirement including a safety/competency test and also requires insurance in case of accidents. We should therefore pass additional gun regulations requiring the same.
I can imagine the counterargument being in almost any step of this chain of logic:
For some reason, cars are actually far more dangerous than guns in the wrong hands, maybe when you appropriately consider the kind of car or kind of gun people most commonly have.
Maybe it seems that cars are more important for modern living, but actually guns are more important, maybe as protection against low-probability really horrible things---tyrannical government, breakdown of society, etc. I guess this would require making some kind of expected value justification, that the horrible thing is likely enough and guns ownership would actually help enough.
I can't really see anyone disagreeing with cars being regulated to the level the argument claims.
We don't need to pass additional gun regulations like those for cars. Because of so and so reason, guns are actually already regulated more strictly than cars. Just look based on this and this example how much easier it is to get a car than a gun (though as long as it's not actually super misleading, the stereotypical Texas Walmart example makes this hard for me to see).
Which of these points can actually be expanded into counterarguments you guys find compelling? How do you do so? Is there something else I'm not considering?
The primary danger from cars and from guns are very different. They are involved in a ballpark similar number of total deaths, but gun-related deaths are around 2/3 suicides, 1/3 homicides, negligible unintentional, while the vast majority of auto fatalities are unintentional. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare them directly--how do you know if regulations on cars are "stricter" than those on guns? They're aimed at different things (or at least, they should be--restrictions targeted at homicide probably far outweigh those targeted at suicide). For example, there's a laundry list of individuals who can't legally buy firearms, including anyone ever convicted of a felony or a domestic violence crime, anyone under a restraining order, and others (full list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Prohibited_persons). As far as I know, the only similar restriction for driving is if you drive drunk--and I believe this is conditional/state dependent, rather than being a universal and federal law. The former is also probably somewhat easier to enforce. Driver's licenses are fully reciprocal within US states and even from many foreign countries, but attempting to travel with a firearm across state lines, let alone international ones, is potentially nightmarish. Transferring a firearm or any of a long list of accessories to another person can require a months-long wait and expensive fee, etc.
Of course, cars also have their own restrictions. Every state requires passing written and road tests for a DL; the requirement to buy a gun is usually pretty light aside from age and the specific restrictions mentioned above. Even the requirements to carry concealed, which are more stringent, are only more difficult than a DL in a few states, and even that may change if Bruen is actually enforced. I suspect most gun-control advocates don't actually know almost any of the regulations on guns, gun ownership, and carrying.
And these differences aren't necessarily inconsistent: Using a car safely is far more difficult than using a gun safely. There are more rules, the machine is vastly more complicated, it usually is used in a much less controlled environment, it takes a lot of practice and constant awareness, etc.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link