This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No, why would I do that? The Shahada is fundamental to what it means to be a Muslim and I will not deny it. It's just saying that God is one and that Muhammad is His messenger, nothing more than that.
But really, what does the Shahada have to do with my dislike of Western modernity?
There you go @Amadan.
Burdensomecount plays the part of a cynic, a neutral critic of the west’s foibles, but that is not who he really is. He is a religious man. The religion he identifies with was thoroughly humiliated by the west, that is why he hates it.
All of his religion’s claims to Truth, to Greatness, to the welfare of its people, have crumbled into dust. No one is more aware of it than he is, living in the godless west. For all his talk of the dysfunctionality of the west, he is so cognizen of his religions’ shortcomings and foul fruits, that he would rather live among his enemies than among his friends. Far from the light of his God, and yet so much brighter.
The cognitive dissonance causes him to lash out at his hosts in trollish barbs, so they can feel his pain.
"I am a Muslim" does not mean "I secretly want to kill or forcibly convert you all and will do so as soon as we gain power."
There are undoubtedly Muslims who feel that way. Maybe @BurdensomeCount is one of them! Some of his anti-Western polemics are pretty... spicy.
If your grievance is with Islam itself, talk about Islam, and if your grievance is with @BurdensomeCount, then attack the actual words he writes, but "You admit to being a Muslim, I believe all Muslims want to kill or forcibly convert us whether they admit it or not, therefore you want to kill or forcibly convert us " is not only uncharitable, but very poor reasoning.
Notably, you only asked him if he'd repudiate his religion, you didn't bother to ask him what specifically he believes. There isn't even a hint of effort from you to engage in good faith.
Not what I said. I said he didn't come to his hatred/dislike of the west through reason, and whatever he says on that subject is not his true objection (his true objection being his religious beliefs), just motivated reasoning. I can give him all the charity he wants on islamic violence, let's assume he, specifically, does not in any way endorse violence against unbelievers.
He does affect a 'how do you do, fellow cynical rationalists' attitude that grates me, but I'm not calling him a liar. If you read between the lines or ask enough times, the truth of his allegiance becomes clear. He just wants to criticize without going through the trouble of defending his own position, that's a natural inclination.
He said he does not like or agree with Osama Bin Laden, and you called him a liar.
Your critiques of his attitude towards the West are fine. It is specifically imputing motives on someone which they've expressly denied that I am calling out. Again, you can believe someone is lying, and you might even be right, but we do not want people calling each other liars unless you can actually prove they are lying (which is rarely possible).
I didn't call him a liar in that comment. I did sort-of call him a future liar by assuming he would probably motte and bailey his true beliefs in the modded comment, and that was too uncharitable and I take it back.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link