This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I mean, the alternative is usually, people die out, and so do their views. Like, there used to be a major Anti-Masonry party in many states in the US. Nothing was really done on a national level to appease those people. It's just that their kids and grandkids didn't really care.
Same thing w/ interracial marriage. Well, there were obviously some shifts by people, if you look at Gallup polling, which goes back to World War II, you see a steady rise until the 80's, then a big jump during that time. Which makes sense - a lot of people who would've been in their 40's by time Civil Rights were a live issue (post-World War II/Humphrey convention speech/Truman desegregation) were dying off, and being replaced by a bunch of Gen Xers who were like 95/5 for interracial marriage.
Ironically, the only issue where the win condition has happened because of actual shifts in people's views, as opposed to generational rollover is gay marriage. Obviously, there was some bit of 85-year old gay marriage opponents being replaced by pro-gay marriage 18 year olds, but the shift happened too quickly to be that.
But yeah, in another generation and a half or so, most of the current Fox News audience/Trump base is going to be worm food. At that point, just like the Right stopped with the overt racism, sexism, etc. in the 70's and 80's to win over younger voters (including winning the youth vote in '84 and '88), the GOP will either have to figure out how to appeal to a largely currently Democratic voting-base (again, yes, Millennial's are voting at lower rates for Democrat's than they did in 2008, but if I remember right, it's about D+8. That's still death for the GOP if the largest voting bloc is even D+4 or D+5, when the smaller, younger voting blocks are even more D-leaning), or they do actually die, outside of the Senate seats they'll hold in depopulating states, and then things get interesting.
It's a nice story, but I think if Blues collectively had the patience and discipline for this strategy, the world would look very different than it does. Also, it would probably help to have kids; I get that this is what big tech, social media and the educational system are for, but... eh. I'm skeptical it plays out the way they're hoping.
The more immediate problem is that Progressives want the future they've been promised, and there is absolutely no way it can be delivered. I think that's going to be a problem for them going forward, and increasingly more so as even their most extreme solutions simply fail. Meanwhile, trust in institutions erodes, and the tighter they squeeze with the consensus machine and social norms, the more society slips through their fingers. Trust in media, academics, elites, Science itself continues to erode, as does social cohesion generally.
In any case, we pays our money and we takes our bets, no? Maybe you're right after all. Time will tell.
I mean, I'm somebody whose to the left of like, 95% of the population, and while I'm obviously not happy with the current situation, it's far better than it was ten, twenty, or thirty years ago. Now, when I was twenty, I was more upset, just like 20-year-olds are now. That's the job of 20-year-olds. But, you get older, and you don't change your views, you just get smarter about implementing them.
The kid gap is somewhat overrated, and even then, we'll just bring in more immigrants (totally legal and unionizable), who will end up voting left-leaning for a few generations because the Right's voting base will require their politicians to be mean to them.
Now, I don't think it's going to be a KO win for us on the left, just like radical abolitionists didn't get everything they wanted, nor did socialists in the 1910's, MLK or Malcolm, or various other left-leaning leaders. But, I think while everything is dangerous in the short term, in the medium and long-term, everything you just listed makes it incredibly difficult to actually have a unified political movement.
On a purely political level, I'll take the trade of 3 high-propensity middle to upper-middle class voters in the suburbs over a rural low propensity low to moderate-income voter not only because they're far more likelier to turn out, but because in 2023, they're far more likely to actually be more left-leaning on economics and social views. Hell, there are thousands of those voters that just made sure abortion will be legal in Wisconsin, and there might be something resembling legislative democracy on the state level as well, whom previously might have voted for Scott Walker a few times.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
While white Americans will be a minority then, the remaining ones will be the descendants of the based, unvaccinated alt-righters currently breeding like rabbits.
White liberals are going extinct, one booster, one contraceptive, one HRT pill, one interracial relationship at a time.
Sure, the Indians, the Chinese, the Mexicans are taking over, but they probably won't try to make your kids gay.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link