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Culture War Roundup for the week of April 10, 2023

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Then I assume you have an example? Because the case law on redistricting certainly doesn't say that.

The case law on redistricting studiously avoids recognizing that the problem with "one man, one vote" is exactly the problem the Framers recognized when reaching the Great Compromise. Urban and rural populations have different interests. Majority rule is mob rule. Protecting minority interests by creating a bicameral legislature with separate apportionment rules, instituting the electoral college, implementing an independent judiciary, etc. are all moves aimed at preventing "one man, one vote" from being the law of the land.

Then I assume you have an example?

Every single "strict scrutiny" case overturning state legislation grounded in a "suspect classification" is a concrete and often explicit example of a protected minority being given veto power over state legislation.

Then it sounds like you don't have an example, because that is nothing like what was happening in CA. You are advocating for giving rural voters veto power over ALL legislation, not the tiny minority of legislation that intentionally discriminates against them, as is the case re the equal protection cases to which you refer.

Then it sounds like you don't have an example

I just gave you all the examples. I can't tell whether you're being deliberately obtuse in hopes of setting some rhetorical trap, or whether I have mistakenly attributed to you a substantial knowledge of the law that you don't actually possess. (For some reason I thought you were a lawyer, but now I'm thinking I must be mistaken about that. If so, my apologies!)

You are advocating for giving rural voters veto power over ALL legislation, not the tiny minority of legislation that intentionally discriminates against them

What reason would they have to use a veto power on anything else?

Or maybe more importantly--why are you advocating for rural voters to never have a veto over ANY legislation, even legislation that intentionally discriminates against them? Because that is clearly the result of "one man, one vote."

I just gave you all the examples.

No, you didn't because, as I said, those are examples of something different: "To make out an equal protection violation, a party cannot merely prove disparate impact—he must "prove `the existence of purposeful discrimination' motivating the state action which caused the complained-of injury." Johnson v. Rodriguez, 110 F.3d 299, 306 (5th Cir. 1997) (citing, inter alia, McCleskey v. Kemp, 481 U.S. 279, 292-93 (1987)). Specifically, "[d]iscriminatory purpose in an equal protection context implies that the decisionmaker selected a particular course of action at least in part because of, and not simply in spite of, the adverse impact it would have on an identifiable group." Woods v. Edwards, 51 F.3d 577, 580 (5th Cir. 1995) (quoting United States v. Galloway, 951 F.2d 64, 65 (5th Cir. 1992))." Allen v. Hays, (5th Circuit No. 21-20337, March 21 2023).

As I said, you are advocating for an absolute veto power, not the limited "veto power" re the narrow set of legislation that violates the Equal Protection Clause.

What reason would they have to use a veto power on anything else?

Are you kidding? Anything that they think does not serve their interests, or anything that they think might harm them (including anything that happens to have an adverse impact), or any culture war issue, for that matter. Or, any project that did not benefit them as much as they wanted. Or any budget that did not fund some useless pork in rural areas. Etc, etc, etc.

why are you advocating for rural voters to never have a veto over ANY legislation, even legislation that intentionally discriminates against them?

  1. I'm not.

  2. Such legislation that did not have a legitimate purpose would be subject to "veto power" under the Equal Protection Clause. If you are arguing that the standard under the EP clause should be higher -- eg, that rural residency should be a quasi-suspect or suspect classification, fine. But you are arguing for something much, much broader: For a certain group to have an absolute veto over ALL legislation.

What reason would they have to use a veto power on anything else?

Are you kidding? Anything that they think does not serve their interests,

Why should they be forced to go along with laws that don't serve their interests? The only reason available under "one man, one vote" appears to be "because they are in the minority, so too bad for them." How much more purposeful could discrimination possibly get, than to say "you get no benefit from this law, for no reason than because the majority is able to require that of you?"

or anything that they think might harm them (including anything that happens to have an adverse impact)

Again--what protection do they have against the majority, then? If rural voters think something harms them, under "one man, one vote" that's just too fucking bad. "One man, one vote" is all by itself purposeful discrimination against rural voters, implemented by a court that was clearly dedicated to its own social engineering projects over and above any constitutional principles.

or any culture war issue, for that matter

Yes, exactly. Rural voters having culture war issues dictated to them by urban voters was in practice, I think, the point of "one man, one vote." It was purposeful discrimination from the word go.

Or, any project that did not benefit them as much as they wanted. Or any budget that did not fund some useless pork in rural areas. Etc, etc, etc.

You haven't listed a single reason that doesn't sound like intentional discrimination against a minority, because they are a minority. Urban voters can veto any project that does not benefit them as much as they want. Urban voters can veto any budget that does not fund some useless pork in cities (like, say, the whole NEH). Etc. Etc. Why shouldn't rural voters have the same power? Ah, yes--because they are the minority. That is literally all "one man, one vote" means: mob rule at the state level. I have a hard time imagining more purposeful discrimination against rural voters.

why are you advocating for rural voters to never have a veto over ANY legislation, even legislation that intentionally discriminates against them?

I'm not.

If you agree with "one man, one vote" then actually yes--you are.

If you are arguing that the standard under the EP clause should be higher -- eg, that rural residency should be a quasi-suspect or suspect classification, fine. But you are arguing for something much, much broader: For a certain group to have an absolute veto over ALL legislation.

In fact I think the vast majority of legislation is totally illegitimate under a plain reading of the U.S. Constitution. That's kind of the theme of this discussion, though it was not my original intention: that 20th century jurisprudence basically threw the constitutional order out the window, substantially in favor of sweeping and often disastrous social engineering projects.

How much more purposeful could discrimination possibly get, than to say "you get no benefit from this law, for no reason than because the majority is able to require that of you?"

If that is discrimination then any law enacted in a mostly democratic nation is surely? Stealing is outlawed because the majority of the populace want it to be. Is outlawing theft discrimination against those who want to steal?

If so then it's so broad a term to be meaningless.

And there is nothing to stop rural voters outnumbering urban voters, there is plenty of open space in the US, more people could move to the country and still have it be near empty. If enough people wanted to be rural then they could be.

If rural voters get a veto then urban voters should get a veto and suburban voters, and criminal voters and car salesmen voters and Appalachians and Cajuns and so on and so on.

Is outlawing theft discrimination against those who want to steal?

Laws against theft protect everyone against theft. I have never yet met a thief who was happy to be stolen from.

If enough people wanted to be rural then they could be.

Sure, in theory. What do you think this shows?

If rural voters get a veto then urban voters should get a veto and suburban voters, and criminal voters and car salesmen voters and Appalachians and Cajuns and so on and so on.

As I note to gdanning below: yes. And not just groups of people, but individuals, too. The vast majority of governance is both unnecessary and coercive.

As I note to gdanning below: yes. And not just groups of people, but individuals, too. The vast majority of governance is both unnecessary and coercive.

Which is basically just invalidating democracy as a political option. Which is fine. But there don't appear to have been any non-coercive societies. Even going back to hunter-gatherer tribes. Not following the rules got you killed or exiled and you probably didn't get a say in what the elders decided.

I'd argue the whole scope of human history is that governance is exactly what we need. The trick is to make people want it and buy into it. Which democracy is pretty good at, because everyone (in theory) gets an equal say. If you can persuade enough people to agree with you, you can enact Libertarianism or Communism or Neo-liberalism. It's the opposite of discrimination in that everyone is equal. A rural vote is worth an urban vote is worth a black vote is worth a white vote is worth a womans vote is worth a mans vote. Rural voters who hold position X can attempt to persuade urban voters to hold position X and vice versa. People who think there should be fewer rules can try and persuade everyone else. If a rural vote is worth more than an urban vote, that is discrimination surely?

Though to be clear, that doesn't mean it might not be JUSTIFIED from a practical perspective. If urban living is more attractive (for whatever reason) and you start to have issues with rural people being less important (democratically) and this causes instability then you might want to as part of a package of measures inflate the importance of rural votes and rural wealth. Decrease taxes on rural economic drivers, push each rural vote to be worth 1.01 votes of everyone else for example. Discrimination can actually be practically necessary. But democratically it should just be transparent. Make a case for why it is needed see if you can convince enough voters etc.

I think our values are somewhat contrariwise in that I think humanity has shown we need pretty firm governance and the main thing to worry about it buy in and stability not maximizing individual liberty, which is (in my view) much less important than the overall health of society (which will in turn mean individuals are better off than they would be on their own). But I am pretty flexible in what steps are necessary for that. That different groups may need different treatment and various thumbs on the scales in pursuit of that larger goal is I think absolutely plausible.

Indeed I would argue the two groups in the US right now that do need that treatment are (primarily) black urban communities and (primarily) white rural communities and increasing the value of their votes could be one way to achieve that. Just not because they should have a veto for a principled libertarian reason or because we need less governance overall. Not sure if that would put us on the same side pragmatically or not though.