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Why should they be forced to go along with laws that don't serve their interests? The only reason available under "one man, one vote" appears to be "because they are in the minority, so too bad for them." How much more purposeful could discrimination possibly get, than to say "you get no benefit from this law, for no reason than because the majority is able to require that of you?"
Again--what protection do they have against the majority, then? If rural voters think something harms them, under "one man, one vote" that's just too fucking bad. "One man, one vote" is all by itself purposeful discrimination against rural voters, implemented by a court that was clearly dedicated to its own social engineering projects over and above any constitutional principles.
Yes, exactly. Rural voters having culture war issues dictated to them by urban voters was in practice, I think, the point of "one man, one vote." It was purposeful discrimination from the word go.
You haven't listed a single reason that doesn't sound like intentional discrimination against a minority, because they are a minority. Urban voters can veto any project that does not benefit them as much as they want. Urban voters can veto any budget that does not fund some useless pork in cities (like, say, the whole NEH). Etc. Etc. Why shouldn't rural voters have the same power? Ah, yes--because they are the minority. That is literally all "one man, one vote" means: mob rule at the state level. I have a hard time imagining more purposeful discrimination against rural voters.
If you agree with "one man, one vote" then actually yes--you are.
In fact I think the vast majority of legislation is totally illegitimate under a plain reading of the U.S. Constitution. That's kind of the theme of this discussion, though it was not my original intention: that 20th century jurisprudence basically threw the constitutional order out the window, substantially in favor of sweeping and often disastrous social engineering projects.
Only if, and because, they are the majority. Not because they are given extra votes due to their status.
And, there are lots of groups in the numerical minority; bookkeepers are a minority of voters; do they get a veto? Why not? What about bus drivers? What about people who live near the beach? They are a minority. So are residents of all sorts of geographic areas, not just those who live in "rural" areas. What about African Americans? Do they get a veto? And Vietnamese Americans? And Mien Americans? And Italian Americans? What about the top 1% - they are a minority. But, so are the bottom 1%. Do they all get vetoes?
No, they don't. We don't give any of those groups a veto, or an extra vote. Again, what is so special about rural voters that they should be given a veto, if none of the other 10,000 numerical minorities don't?
"The majority gets to do those things because they are the majority" is not an explanation, it's you repeating the premise. It's certainly not a constitutional principle. If anything, it violates the constitutional edict that the federal government ensure a republican form of government in each individual state. Republican governments have never in history been "one man, one vote" until the Warren court said so.
Well, yes! This is the true spirit of "equal protection." The end result is intensely libertarian, which is how it should be. The only time the government should act at all is when, by so doing, everyone benefits. Otherwise government is just a grand, complicated exercise in "who, whom."
Did you think this was some kind of persuasive "gotcha?" Here's Ayn Rand:
I'm very much on board with this. Today the Court just picks-and-chooses minorities for special legal protection. Rural voters are out, black voters are in. Mormons are out, Muslims are in. Asians are out, "indigenous peoples" are in. This is legal bullshit of the highest order, a complete abandonment of the rule of law.
Like hell we don't. Black and Hispanic voting districts are a thing, and redistricting in race-neutral ways draws all kinds of ire. Nobody gets to thumb the scales in similar ways for politically disfavored minorities.
I haven't said anything about denying anyone a veto--remember, that's your (inconsistent) position. I'm the one defending minority rights here. If you want to come over to my side and have a chat about who else should also get a veto, I'm definitely open to that! But you don't actually seem inclined to do that--you seem instead to simply be grasping for any possible reason to defend the idea that rural voters are just the natural and appropriate political slaves of urban America.
So, you are literally advocating that every numerical minority -- bookkeepers, etc; heck, even every individual! -- get veto power over legislation? Meaning that no law ever gets passed? I am pretty sure that that is not what the framers had had in mind.
Yes, but so are rural districts. Black and Hispanic districts are the same size as other districts, right? So, why should rural districts be an exception.
That's an odd claim for someone who is arguing that urban voters should be the political slaves of rural America. I have yet to see a principled statement of why that should be the case.
And that is the source of the problem: There is no such thing. Fighting inflation helps creditors but harms debtors. So, according to you, govt should do nothing when inflation rises. But, wait! Doing nothing is ALSO a policy choice! One which helps debtors and harms creditors. That is true of all policy issues. So, if you are starting from the premise that there are any government actions from which "everyone benefits," your argument rests on rotten foundations.
Well, in a way.
Why should it mean that? Laws do pass unanimously in the House and Senate from time to time, and if we were voting on very basic matters I think we could often generate consent--especially if we limited citizenship to people who could pass a test of reasoning. Anyway I don't believe in direct democracy but so long as you have robust property and personal rights protected by a minimal government, a single person or group's decision to not participate in this or that regulatory scheme doesn't seem worth getting worked up about.
Well, probably not all of them. But some of them do seem to have felt approximately as I do. The "Great Compromise" is, I remind you, the best evidence we have available that, whatever else they believed, the Framers did not think "one man, one vote" was going to work for the United States.
Black and Hispanic districts are created specifically to maximize Black and Hispanic impact. It's harder to do this with rural districts primarily because the sheer size of cities makes giving equal power to rural voters basically impossible under "one man, one vote."
Now you're just being pointlessly absurd. Nothing I have said implies that urban voters should be the political slaves of rural America. You're the only person here arguing that a certain minority deserves to be coerced because it is a minority. I think the Great Compromise was an interesting move. A bicameral legislature, with one house apportioned by population and one apportioned by geography, seems like a very functional resolution. It was so brilliant that many states copied the move with their own state legislatures--until the Warren court attacked.
This is bullshit. Laws against murder, rape, arson, theft, etc. are all to the benefit of everyone. Even a stable monetary system is arguably to the benefit of everyone. I see no need to pander to the last standing contrarian; people who don't want to participate in the government should be afforded maximum opportunity to do that, for example through aforementioned strong protection of individual and property rights. We live under an absolutely outrageous amount of regulation and government bloat today. None of it is necessary. Most of it is actively harmful to many while being slightly beneficial to a select few. There is nothing just about that; there is certainly nothing constitutional about it.
Unanimity is a lot easier in a group of 435 than in a group of 330 million. And, in fact there is rarely a unanimous vote in the House for anything of substance.
It isn't about reason. It is about interests.
The Great Compromise was about the distribution of power among states, not voters. Where is the evidence that the Framers were particularly worried about the power of groups of voters? And, why is the argument in Reynolds v. Sims re the irrelevance of the federal analogy, wrong? And, how relevant is the understanding of the Founders in 1787 to the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment? After all, in Dobbs, the Court looked the understanding of "Due Process of Law" when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, not when the Fifth Amendment was adopted.
I am not sure why you went from "maximizing Black and Hispanic impact" to giving "equal power" to rural voters. Rural voters' power can also be maximized, and in fact that is exactly why states like PA and WI have lopsided pro-R legislatures.
Regardless, what does this have to do with whether it is OK to give some types of voters extra votes, which was the practice before one man, one vote?
That is certainly a more accurate description of the situation pre-one man, one vote than is your description of the current situation as rural voters being the slaves of urban America
No, I haven't. I have asked what is so special about a particular minority -- rural voters -- that they have a right to be given extra votes and a veto, as was the case in the past.
It is a functional resolution only if you think there is something special about geographic minorities, rather than all the other numerical minorities.
That argument means that the govt can do anything, because anything can be framed as being to the benefit of everyone. Want to cut welfare? It will incentivize work, which in the long run will strengthen the economy and thereby benefit everyone. Want to increase welfare? It will provide additional spending power to the recipients, which will strengthen the economy and thereby benefit everyone. Etc, etc.
What does that have to do with one man, one vote?
Calling them "extra votes and a veto, as was the case in the past" continues to beg the question, as you have done from the moment you joined this conversation. They weren't "extra" votes, it was the way the system was set up to protect certain minority interests from mob rule. If you prefer mob rule, like--I doubt I'm in any position to talk you out of that.
Most of what you're writing now suggests that you are either unwilling or unable to understand the answers I've already given you, so I should probably just leave it at that.
Yes, we should leave it at that, because, yet again, you have failed to explain why this one specific numerical minority must be protected from "mob rule" and others don't. You know, Lani Guinier made somewhat similar arguments as you, but unlike you she argued on behalf of members of her outgroup as well as members of her ingroup.
Finally, re: "if you prefer mob rule" -- isn't there some sort of rule her about dishonestly summarizing others' position? And, for the record, I am willing to bet that I am far more opposed to mob rule than you are, because I have never seen you stand up for the rights of those you disagree with, which is something I do routinely. Its a civil liberties thing, as opposed to a culture war thing.
What reason would I have to explain that? I have explicitly stated my position upthread that rural voters are not the only "numerical minority" that must be protected from mob rule. Let's have a look at just one recent example:
Where I said "I should probably leave it at that" in my previous post, I first deleted a paragraph where I laid out an argument that you are either being disingenuous, or have a serious reading comprehension issue. Then I thought--no, that's too much heat, not enough light, I'm just going to drop it.
With this comment, though, I just don't see any totally non-antagonistic way to describe your persistent and repeated mischaracterization of my view. I get that the thread is unwieldy, and you and I are both getting a lot of comments from a variety of people. So I want to be charitable about this, but like--if you're going to whine that I've "failed to explain" some position, you should probably be pretty confident that it's my actual position, and not a position I have repeatedly stated that I do not hold, right here in this thread! But no--here you are, arguing against some imaginary version of me you've concocted in your head.
Speaking of which--
If there were any plausible way to take that bet, I'd certainly do so--not least because I'd be shocked if you could personally identify the class of "people I disagree with" to even 50% accuracy. Conversely, I would not deign to comment on how often you stand up for the rights of people you disagree with, because I don't know you, and it would be idiotic to think that just because someone is (say) colossally disingenuous and reliably partisan in an online forum, that must be their whole personality.
Furthermore, probably most of us are bad at tracking good deeds, unless they are really substantial. My honest inclination is to say "I've never seen you actually demonstrate real care about civil liberties in ways that might undermine your apparent politics," but the truth is, if I had seen you do that, I probably wouldn't remember. There are too many users here for me to reliably remember each one's quirks and hangups, so I try to just approach every discussion with fresh eyes. Still, for whatever it's worth: you've never given me the impression that you are the tiniest bit interested in defending civil liberties in any broadly principled way.
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