This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don't buy this. I don't think choosing to trade off life expectancy for something you value more constitutes a mental illness.
Even if you go full natural law I don't think you can reasonably argue that maximizing lifespan to the exclusion of exploration or ideals is man's nature.
Hell, I took estrogen for years just because I perceived the world as having two Ice cream flavors that I was only allowed to have one of, and I still endorse having done that, even now that I've stopped. It seems like depriving yourself to me if you don't try the other feel at least once in your life. Do you really want to die without knowing how that flavor you've had in front of you your whole life tastes?
And- the material reality of the body is that you can alter it with hormones. Why pick on people who take hormones instead of people who work out to get buff? They're also battling a material reality.
What would make you consider something consider a mental illness then? Depression driving you to suicide is "trading off life expectancy for something you value more" under your approach.
As long as you're aware of what you're signing up for, it's fair enough, but under the current ideology "trans women are women", which implies the material reality of the body is not accepted.
Yeah, depression is an illness. I could posit my standard natural law argument (the human telos throughout western history and each human life has been that of ascension and transcendence, which subverting gender is another example of, whereas depression is a lack of motivation that drains that telos- yada yada) But really I know it when I see it.
"I, a trans women need to transmute myself such that I am a perfect cis woman in order to be able to function."
That- is a mental illness. That's the sort of thing that leaves Contrapoints in a ditch for months.
"I, a trans women need to transmute myself such that I possess a perfect cisgender female morph. I will not stop. I'm working on my bio doctorate. That Y chromosome's days are numbered."
That- is Metal. Get me more girls like that I want to marry those. A whole start-up of them. We'll build our children together like proper engineers.
So even as a trans advocate I appreciate people attacking the precept that "trans women are [cis] women!" ... in theory.
The thing is- the way the lines are drawn right now,
I don't think any of the people trying to tear that down have any real interest in helping trans people find the replacement I'd like them to have.
And if it were torn down, I don't think it would be followed with a reasoned, evidence based cultural conversation on the safest place to redraw lines for bathrooms or sports.
I think, if either side gives an inch right now, the other will take a mile. So naturally, no-one gives an inch.
Fair, but so do others, and they might draw the line somewhere else.
You're mostly right, but there's a handful of people who are trying to have a reasonable and compassionate approach to this issue. I don't rate their chances of being listened to when the whole thing comes to a head particularly high, but they are out there.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link