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(I'm new, so I'm not sure if this is Culture War.)
Does anyone have any modern dating advice?
I'm interested in finding out what are the "real" rules that people operate under when it comes to dating, which might be different from the rules they ought to have or the rules they claim to have or the rules that they believe that they have (but subconsciously they use different rules). And of course the word "people" is very broad and presumably various subgroups operate in different ways, so I'd be happy for clarification on that point too. (And then of course individuals differ from the norms of the subgroups they belong to). Ideally I'd like to see some objective evidence, but personal experiences/impressions still count for something.
I identify with the difficulties in Scott's classic posts "Untitled" and "Radicalizing the Romanceless". Generally I'm paranoid about approaching women, because I feel like maybe they think I'm a creep and they're just too polite to say so. My biggest concern isn't that they dislike me per se; it's that maybe I've hurt the woman without realizing it. I'm very sensitive about that.
I've done dating sites and speed dating but I can't seem to find any connections. I should note that I have low self-esteem, so rejection is hard on me, which in turn makes it difficult to put myself out there. (Here's a question: How much time per week does the average single straight guy spend on dating sites etc., assuming he's actively looking for a date?)
I'm not a misogynistic incel, but whenever I talk about my dating woes a good portion of people feel the need to tell me "Don't be an incel!" when I haven't said or done anything remotely misogynistic. I figure the Motte is probably a good place to find people who understand my perspective.
I've been looking for dating advice recently, but everything seems contradictory. You're supposed to treat all people equally regardless of gender (which is great!), but at the same time you're supposed to conform to gender stereotypes and you should expect that most women will do the same. People tell me it sucks and it's not fair, but I'm the man and that means I have to initiate contact and get rejected a lot. They also tell me to be persistent but in the same breath they tell me not to be too persistent and it's not clear where to draw the line.
They tell me to be authentic but they also tell me to "fake it till you make it" and act like I'm a cool guy who dates people all the time. They tell me to express my feelings but they also tell me that "women can smell fear" so I should act confident even if I don't feel confident. They tell me to be honest but I've also had a (female) therapist suggest that I should tell some white lies to make myself more attractive. This woman gave a TED talk about her wonderful relationship with her husband (who sadly passed away) and she admits that the relationship began with lies: He falsely claimed to be a Fullbright Scholar to get her attention. Months later she found out the truth, but she was only angry for a short time. Ultimately, his lie made their whole relationship possible!
People tell me that women like it when you express interest in them, but also they think it's creepy. People tell me I must never express interest in a girl at her place of work, but the only relationship I had in the last 10 years began with that exact scenario, and the girl was flattered! (We eventually broke up, and since then I've also approached a few female coworkers at my own workplace, without success.) People tell me that if I show interest in a girl early on then I'm "too easy" and there's no "intrigue", so the appropriate thing is to give little hints about my feelings so she can pursue me. (In which case, apparently I'm taking the female role and she's taking the male role? I'm not offended by that; I'm just confused.)
People say that they met the love of their life on a dating app, but they also say that dating apps are trash and nobody likes them. (But even though everybody hates dating apps, apparently nobody can think of anything better to do.) People tell me it's ok to wear t-shits with the name of my favorite show or whatever (it displays my personality), but also I should never do that and the only way to be attractive is to wear solid colors with the occasional stripe.
One commenter on the Motte wrote "running a 'playing hard to get' game on a woman seems suboptimal. If you are looking for someone with whom you are authentically drawn to/compatible with, why set up these hoops or create a culture of deception within the relationship?", but in the next breath that same person wrote "it is also a risk to be overly eager. It's unattractive". But if I'm very attracted and I act like I'm only mildly attracted, doesn't that create a culture of deception within the relationship??
Long story short, I'm lost.
(And it surely doesn't help that I've got a long history of mental illness and isolation and thus I missed out on a lot of opportunities for social learning.)
I am actually bi, but in practice it's rare for a guy to get my attention, so I'm mostly concerned about how to approach women.
"Radicalizing" was written in 2014, and the advice at the bottom leads me to essays from 2001. It occurs to me that this might be woefully out of date.
Does anyone have any modern advice for me?
I think you are trying to do and understand too much. I do not believe it is generally productive to develop a theory on what "women" as a class do- or do-not like; the category is simply too large and too diverse. And even if some general trends can be discerned, they are not likely to be specific enough to be of more than marginal assistance in any given interaction with a random woman. Moreover, geographic and relational clustering effects (i.e., local, ideological, or subject-based sub-cultures or groups) can result in highly heterogenous pockets with unique and/or counterintuitive dynamics, separate and apart from the main trends.
Here is my advice to you:
make yourself as interesting and capable a person as you can - whatever that means to you. Acquire skills. Get in good shape. Learn to dress and present yourself well. Ponder the mysteries of life until you have something interesting to say. Read great writers and prose stylists until you can command language well enough to express your thoughts clearly, concisely, and interestingly. Learn about (or, better, go experience) some interesting shit - not like "I went on holiday to Cambodia and man are the Phnom Penh temple complexes cool!", but instead put yourself in new circumstances that will test or surprise you. Push yourself to- and through- your limits. Get some interesting life stories, and then learn to tell them well. You should be doing this anyway, and if you are doing a good job it will have the happy side-effect of drawing other people to you. People like interesting, competent, attractive people.
interact with women as individuals. Personally I've always found it much less daunting to talk to "Jessica, the receptionist who dotes on her baby brother, loves to go antiquing, and just came back from her cousin's wedding in Tennessee over the weekend" than it is to think about how to talk to Capital-W Women.
put yourself in positions where you can meet individuals. Volunteer at a shelter, or take a pottery/stained glass/cooking class, or start going to church/synagogue/mosque/etc. Maybe join a professional networking association, or go to hobby conventions. Try to force yourself to be outgoing in other normal life situations - if someone is struggling to get a box off a high shelf at the store, ask if you can help. If you see someone at a cafe reading a book you're interested in (though this is a bit fraught with danger these days), ask if they'd recommend it. If you frequent a particular restaurant or store, notice whether or not you frequently get the same cashier or sales assistant - if so, greet them and maybe make some small talk as you order. This will make you more comfortable with other people and more outgoing, and with any luck at all will spring some friendships or casual acquaintanceships. Some of them might be women in your preferred demographic, but even the ones who aren't have relatives/friends/colleagues of their own. Build your social circle as wide as possible, to net as many contacts as possible.
Be honest if you find someone attractive This one is pretty simple - if you find someone attractive, say so. Obviously not in an inappropriate way ("Hi, you have great tits, what's your name?" is unlikely to work outside of very particular circumstances). Knowing the object of your affection personally will help with this - thoughtful compliments that show that the giver is paying close attention are generally received better than generic ones.
Be Prepared To Accept Rejection This is by far the hardest one - at least for me personally - but I swear to God that if you can somehow trick yourself into a zen-like belief that all the world is an illusion so rejection by a pretty woman is as meaningless and ephemeral as a wisp of smoke from a snuffed candle, you will have a fucking superpower when it comes to dating. Being able to keep your cool, accept "no" as an answer, and roll on, undaunted and unruffled, to the next thing not only makes it way easier to actually shoot your shot, but also makes you better at it because you're not stressing and pressing with the stink of desperation on you.
Alternately you can try the apps - others have left comments with good advice for those, but I retain faith in the old-fashioned way of doing things.
I certainly wish you luck.
I would recommend this, as a test:
Are you willing to endure and sacrifice, for any reason or no good reason, for years, even decades? Can you go years without making a single social blunder? Can you make a million a year...are you on track to do this by age 35? Can you get people to fight for you: would you make a good infantry officer? It's like a modern version of Rudyard Kipling's If.
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