This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm not arguing for anything here, it's that it's the relevant dimension here, and the comparison to other secular festivals is different on this specific ground. To equate Pride with them, is a game of hide the pickle.
Break out the template by it's components, the "Holiday Festival" starter kit, from the inside out:
The core concept
The values, priorities and value-system embodied by the concept
A particular instance, example, or memorial of the concept forming the holiday
Pious observance of the holiday
Secular celebration and festivities connected to or an outgrowth from the holiday
'Spicy', 'Adult', or 'inappropriate' takes on and circumstances of indulgence in the festivities.
Take Mardi-gras:
Catholicism
Catholic morality, esp. pray, fasting, and alms-giving
The Beginning of Lent
Shrove Tuesday traditions
Mardi-Gras
Drunken carousing, partying, sex, and nudity.
4th of July:
America
American Patriotism & Democracy
The signing of the Declaration of Independence
Patriotic Displays, memorials, Bank holiday, etc.
Picnics, parades, fireworks, boating at the lake.
Adult parties with booze, etc.
In both of these instances, (and many more), one might criticize the inappropriateness of them on account of 6, or be specifically upset by children being around too much 6. And, like you have done here, we can rebut that the adult themes in 6, are not central or even necessarily relevant to 1-5. Neither does partaking in or exposing kids to 5, imply any sort of approval or support for 6.
But this doesn't work with Pride because adult themes are central to #1 and #2. There is no instance of 4 or 5 that is divorced from themes of sex and sexuality or divorced from values of sexual liberalism.
And while some things in bucket 6 like boozing, nudity, or sleeping around are not central to PRIDE, they are not nearly so divorced or in contradiction with the core themes as in other holidays, secular and religious. Acceptance of sexual liberalism, breaking of taboos and social mores, and celebration of eroticism are a core component of PRIDE, not tacked on or in tension with.
While there are plenty of prude, chaste, and modest LGBT members, perhaps even most of them, PRIDE itself is not remotely about integrating same-sex into heteronormative forms of disgression.
Pride is about sex and is adult themed. You can accuse me of wanting to specially zone that out of public modesty, but it's the opposite, you need to defend PRIDE's special and unique inclusion of it, and comparisons to other, non-sexually themed holidays are a motte and baily.
More options
Context Copy link