This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
‘Sex categorization model’ is something that goes on in caveman brain. And let me put it this way- Grug not know what ‘trans’ is. Grug know there is man, woman, and freak. Sometimes Grug treat freak as woman or man to be polite, but whole tribe know freaks not men or women if it actually matter.
Everything past that is sophomoric mental masturbation. We don’t have to care on a deep mental level about drawing up some definition, because you can’t change caveman brain and it’s in the drivers seat. And honestly I don’t want to have to keep track of 56 genders, and I don’t want to have to do a bunch of sophomoric mental masturbation to justify that or to justify that no, a 35 year old natal male claiming to be a woman doesn’t get to shower with my teenaged daughter. If society tries to make me I’ll just declare 54 of them freaks that the tribe should make sleep at a separate fire, farther out where the wolves are, and tell them ‘have you considered being normal’ if they complain.
What do you do when trans people pass so well they fool the caveman brain?
e.g https://old.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/lnf0lw/conservatives_dont_really_understand_biology_smh/
More options
Context Copy link
Trans people have always been with us. Nature is not perfect. I have heard it said that there were four genders: men, women, crackpots, and mutants. Separating crackpots and mutants is a hard thing to do with the medical science of 2023. Perhaps someone will find a way to do it, and the people of 2160 will look at us like we looked at the age before germ theory.
More options
Context Copy link
Maybe, but you haven't added enough light to the conversation to justify the heat you're bringing. Assume for the sake of argument that the objectively correct response to transsexual choices, behavior, or advocacy is mockery: here at the Motte, you can argue that this is so but you are not permitted to actually deploy the mockery. You can say "we should call freaks freaks" but you cannot nakedly assert "these people are freaks." I assume that people find it challenging to walk that line since almost everyone I know, here and elsewhere, is really quite bad at it. But it is the line that has been drawn around this space so you need to adhere to it here.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link