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Culture War Roundup for the week of June 5, 2023

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you should consider it from behind the veil of ignorance

I agree.

If Man A punched Man B and I knew one of them was my son but not which, I would pray to every god under the sun that B didn't shoot at A.

Why? Remember, we're assuming self-defense. If B shoots A and A is your son, your son is a murderer who was shot in self-defense. If B doesn't shoot A and B is your son, then your son is a murder victim, with some probability. Surely you'd be more concerned for your son's survival if he's innocent than if he's a murderer, so if you don't know whether he's A or B, you'd prefer the scenarion where B shoots.

Unless you're saying that you don't want B to shoot A because your only concern is reducing the chance of death, and it doesn't matter who started it. Then this proves too much and implies that you oppose lethal self-defense, period. Do you?

If B shoots A and A is your son, your son is a murderer who was shot in self-defense.

No? He was a drunkard who punched someone and was killed. Not a murderer.

If B doesn't shoot A and B is your son, then your son is a murder victim, with some probability.

"with some probability" is don't a lot of work there.

Unless you're saying that you don't want B to shoot A because your only concern is reducing the chance of death, and it doesn't matter who started it

It matters, but not as much as my son stay alive.

Then this proves too much and implies that you oppose lethal self-defense, period. Do you?

It does matter, but not nearly as much imo as it does to you.

If a unhinged man is holding a dozen people hostage with a gun, take him out if you can. I'd support this even if there were a 1-in-13 chance the hostage-taker was my son. If a psychotic man has a knife and is charging you, and you can't get away, shoot him.

If one man sucker punches another in public, don't shoot. I'd support this even if there were a 1-in-2 chance the punched man was my son.

There are scenarios where there are degrees of uncertainty regarding the correct action - parameters that influence this include

  • who started it

  • how much effort was made to escape

  • how much each party escalated prior

  • discrepancies in overall strength of the parties

  • presence of peers

  • distance from security/police

  • etc

A lethal confrontation is inherently a situation where you have no time to make a considered, reasoned, conclusion about exactly what actions are appropriate in response.

Requiring a balancing test is essentially saying "either no self-defense at all, or take the risk of going to jail". I find it unacceptable to judge people in a sudden lethal confrontation based on factors that no victim could actually take into account when they are thrust into a lethal confrontation.