site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 5, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Again, can you explain your point with respect to my claim? Are you claiming the caste system in India has non-Indo European origins? Is it not an example of a genetic strategy as a religion as I have said? Hinduism is the expression of the unique combination of genes and environment on the continent, I wouldn't expect it to be identical to all IE civilizations. But caste endogamy is absolutely a common feature in IE civilization and that feature in Indian civilization has IE origins.

No it is not, not anywhere close to the extent of Indian society. And the non-Indo-European Dravidians have this endogamy too. I have gave you examples of Indo-European exogamy like the non-Indo-European Etruscans who were found to be identical to the Romans next to them even before they were assimilated to a Roman identity.

The Bell Beakers who both groups were half assimilated were almost 50% EEF. Far more than the Corded Ware Culture people like the Aryans who were only 20-30%. The Latins had nothing like the endogamy in India. Over 2000 years they became identical to their non-Indo-European neighbors. In 3500 years the Brahmins still have more steppe and Harappan ancestry. The Shudras in South India (who are denied, categorically, upper caste status by the Northern Indian Brahmins) have higher steppe and Harappan ancestry than the Dalits.

There is no evidence the Patrician class was more Indo-European in ancestry than the lower classes. Even the Etruscans had similar rates of R1b to the Romans. The Basque who are more EEF shifted than fellow Iberians have higher rates of R1b. The extremely steppe Swedish are modally the non-steppe I1 haplogroup.

Endogamy is a greater concern in IE civilizations with greater diversity including: South Africa, Latin America, Colonial America, the British Empire. Granted none of those are like the Hindu caste system, and those are all examples of post-Christianization European civilizations which would again support my argument for religious changes being synonymous with changes in genetic strategy (the Catholic church outlawing cousin marriage is significant here). Still, those civilizations had caste system with high levels of endogamy including in America, where the colonials resisted mixing with the natives.

The colonials resisted a little bit, but look at them now. They are not quite thoroughly mixed, but they are making great progress, and that is with large amounts of immigration from Europe and even the Middle East and Asia! It isn't panmixia, but you don't need that to remove genetic distinctions between populations. You only need a little.

Finally:

Here's a link on the Indian caste system being Harappan.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/tag/india-genetics/

Here's a line on Eastern Iranian genetics.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/descendants-of-ancient-european-fair.html

And here, note Brahmins are less than 30% Sintashta like ancestry even in the North-West.

https://razib.substack.com/p/among-afghans-jewel-of-the-dragon

Only the Jats and Rors who are clearly descended of ancient Eastern Iranian peoples, who invaded later, have more steppe ancestry, despite being considered low-caste Shudras.

Here's a link on the Indian caste system being Harappan.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/tag/india-genetics/

I noticed the article makes similar claims that steppe ancestry wasn't related to social class in ancient Greece:

In the near future the ancient DNA group led by David Reich will publish a bunch of stuff, and one paper will note that the variation in steppe ancestry in the Bronze Age Greeks did not have class implications. In other words, the ancient Greeks did not have a caste system as you might find in India

Who was the god among the Greco-Romans venerated as embodying the highest degree of power and beauty- worshipped as "The Most Greek" of the gods? It was Apollo the Hyperborean. Apollo was likewise known as Archegetes, meaning Apollo was a founder of civilizations and a colonizer, who "took pleasure" in the creation of cities and contrived their existence. The god embodies a race of civilizational founders who emerged from a northern realm. In the 4th century AD, the physician Adamantius described the "true Greek" - or where the "Hellenic race has been kept pure" as:

Wherever the Hellenic and Ionic race has been kept pure, we see proper tall men of fairly broad and straight build, neatly made, of fairly light skin and blond...

The Ionians in particular were understood as directly descended from Apollo.

Apollo was described as the most beautiful and perfect of the gods, establishing a breeding model and aspirational model for men. Here we see the Indo-European, Nordic type posited as a physical ideal among the ancient Greeks. Apollo is the unequivocal embodiment of the Indo-European gene worshipped by the Greco-Romans. The basis for your assertion that the Indian Caste system has non-IE origins is rationalized in your article with:

India is different. It has jati-varna, with varna being caste as you would understand, but jati being one of thousands of endogamous “communities” in the subcontinent. At first, like many, I assumed this had something to do with the Indo-Aryan migration into the subcontinent, but I noticed a few things early on... jati is peculiarly India, even if varna is not.

But caste subdivision was a fact of Greco-Roman civilization. In Ancient Greece the Phratry controlled access to civic society and citizenship. Phratry was itself considered a subdivision of Phyle- tribe, or clan. There were subdivisions within the Phratry known as Genos, from which we derive the modern words gene or genetics.

Unequivocally, in Greco-Roman society we see an identical concern with genetics as religion, including castes and their subdivisions, in the amelioration of an Indo-European gene. This is to say, the caste system in India is Indo-European, and after all both jati and varna are words of Indo-European origin.